Wedding Gift Or Wedding Payment

MommyZ

Mon, Oct 25 2010, 3:18 pm

There has been a recurring theme regarding attending weddings without giving a gift to at least cover the cost of the meal.

I always considered a gift to be - Something that is bestowed voluntarily and without compensation. This is to contrast with what a payment is- The transfer of one form of good, service or financial asset in exchange for another form of good, service or financial asset in proportions that have been previously agreed upon by all parties involved.

I don't often attend weddings and when we do attend a wedding of a friend we generally can't afford to cover the cost of a meal. I consider it crass to call a payment a gift. Most people are not taking time out of their busy schedules for an overcooked piece of meat or a dried out piece of chicken. The gift is something given from the heart with love without expectations or calculations other then financial considerations of the person who is giving it (maybe). I would rather go to a wedding with cake and ice water where the hosts weren't looking at their guests as blank checks to cover the cost of the wedding then attend a lavish, expensive wedding where the host had a bad eye for whoever didn't pay their share of the cost.

Is this simply a cultural difference? Do you expect your guests to cover the cost of the wedding that you are making? Do you expect to pay for the cost of the wedding other people are making?

MommyZ

Mon, Oct 25 2010, 3:25 pm

mha3484 wrote:

As someone recently married I am having trobule understanding this. My DH and I got to keep the monetary gifts that were given to us and we didn't pay for the bulk of the wedding. Are people writing checks to the parents of the chasan and kallah? How is it conisdered repayment for attending? Can someone explain this to me? (I hope I am not hijaking this thread. Please let me know and I will post this question elsewhere.)

I think the calculation is that your parents give gifts at their children's wedding so by them giving you gifts they are repaying your parents for their gifts? I don't know but I find these calculations to be Machiavellian and crass.

shlomitsmum

Mon, Oct 25 2010, 3:30 pm

I voted no....
I think to expect anything other than good wishes is wrong and crass .....but that is just me .
I invite people for their company NOT presents .
We asked for people to donate to GIOH in lieu of presents and had no registry whatsoever ,I feel it puts pressure on people and sends the message something is expected .

I do give presents but keep it practical and classy mostly things to be used for Shabbos.
Last wedding I gave a Royal doulton Tablecloth (I had it monogramed) for shabbos along with a italian crystal serving set ,Couples LOVE this kinda stuff and it does not put me off budget Very Happy

Winners is awesome for finding amazing presents like this Wink

Tablepoetry

Mon, Oct 25 2010, 3:42 pm

Cultural difference. Big cultural difference. What is crass in one culture is refined in the next.
In most circles in Israel, a guest is expected to bring a monetary gift. If he can. In other words, no one expects someone unemployed or having financial trouble to break the bank for a wedding. But people do expect their middle class peers to give approximately the same amount they gave them for their wedding or for their kids' weddings.

We went round this issue in circles a few months back. Bottom line is, in many cultures the wedding gift is like a loan. I go to the wedding and give 200 NIS to help you with your event. Barring exceptional and unfortunate circumstances, I expect you will return that 200 NIS or whereabouts when I get married or my kid has a bar mitzvah or gets married. You can call it crass, or you can call it a communal loan bank, a way of making sure everyone in their turn can throw their event.

The cheques are written in the couples' names. They go to cover the event. Sometimes the couple takes the cheques, and the parents pay for the event - but ultimately, that's the same thing, because it just saves the parents from giving a big gift to the young couple, which is often done.

To reiterate for the millionth time: no one expects you to take food from your babies' mouths to pay for a gift. Those who really can't afford a monetary gift usually don't go to the events of mere acquaintances, but only to those of close friends and family, and give what they can. I've had people give me 10 NIS gifts and I didn't care in the least, because I assumed they couldn't afford more. I wanted these people there no matter what and they knew it.

But the general cultural consensus in most circles in Israel is that this is a loan system, not a 'gift'. So call it a loan rather than gift if you feel that's more precise. It's all semantics anyway.

MommyZ

Mon, Oct 25 2010, 3:47 pm

Tablepoetry wrote:

No we don't attend weddings of mere acquaintances and yes it does take money from the mouths of my babies sometimes which for me is a big deal. I don't equate loans with gifts. Some people have an easier time making simchas then others but here in the US many couple's have wedding registry lists which means that they are getting gifts (hopefully the ones they ask for but not always) and not always money anyway.

Tablepoetry

Mon, Oct 25 2010, 3:55 pm

MommyZ wrote:

Tablepoetry wrote:

No we don't attend weddings of mere acquaintances and yes it does take money from the mouths of my babies. So it's a big deal for me.

So no one would expect you to bring a cheque.
When I invite my cousin who lives in a 1 bdroom flat to my event, I feel bad that she gives me 50 NIS when she comes with her husband. Because I know how much money that is to her. So when she throws her kids a bar mitzvah, I will give her more to make up for it. Not so much more that she feels inadequate, but a bit more to be polite and generous. So it all evens out in the end.

If you were part of the Israeli system, once your babies grew up and got married, their weddings would be 'paid for' by the guests. You would get everything you gave throughout the years back. It's a loan, remember.
Every bar/bat mitzvah or brit I've held has been practically covered by the guests.

Grandmama

Mon, Oct 25 2010, 4:34 pm

Today in NY there is a possibility of making a wedding for a very low price.
If someone can only afford a cheap wedding, then that is what they do.
If no one gives a gift, then that's okay too, as no one spent anything beyond their means.
The money goes to the couple, the wedding has been paid for in advance.
NO caterer here makes a simcha unless they receive the money at least a week before the chasuna.

What happens in EY when some families have 8 or 10 kids and some have only 2 or 3? The ones with smaller families are invited to more simchas and have to give way more than their kids ever get back?
How do they feel about it?
I know one wealthy elderly woman that stopped giving anyone gifts, because at the last wedding of her child, no one gave anything, deciding they were wealthy enough and could give their own kids gifts.....

IMHO I have long since concluded that it is a bigger mitzva for me to give to my own children and let everyone else worry about theirs. So while I still enjoy being generous when possible, I think twice all the time.

louche

Mon, Oct 25 2010, 5:17 pm

MommyZ wrote:

There has been a recurring theme regarding attending weddings without giving a gift to at least cover the cost of the meal.

I always considered a gift to be - Something that is bestowed voluntarily and without compensation. This is to contrast with what a payment is- The transfer of one form of good, service or financial asset in exchange for another form of good, service or financial asset in proportions that have been previously agreed upon by all parties involved.

...I consider it crass to call a payment a gift. Most people are not taking time out of their busy schedules for an overcooked piece of meat or a dried out piece of chicken. The gift is something given from the heart with love without expectations or calculations other then financial considerations of the person who is giving it (maybe). I would rather go to a wedding with cake and ice water where the hosts weren't looking at their guests as blank checks to cover the cost of the wedding then attend a lavish, expensive wedding where the host had a bad eye for whoever didn't pay their share of the cost.

What she said.

Grandmama

Mon, Oct 25 2010, 9:49 pm

louche wrote:

Grandmama wrote:

Today in NY there is a possibility of making a wedding for a very low price.

Define "very low price".

How about $5,000 per side, 200 couples minimum, $50 a couple. Including everything. Hall provides fake flowers, badchan, piped in music, and all food.
There are also several options charging $5,000 for both sides, but not including flowers, music, a badchan, a singer, or any other extras.
Weddings are tastefully done, within the norm. Halls are beautiful.
We are not discussing getting married in shul with a handful of people. Or self cooking the wedding.

amother

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 3:00 am

in my circles people give a gift bec thay want to "share in the simcha" or bec they feel they "have to" but not to pay for their meal. its the same way you bring a present by a kids birthday.

the part I dont get is - the bigger and fancier the wedding, the more expensive the gift "has to be" (in other circles). that doesnt make any sense to me. if the parents can afford to make a lavish wedding then giving a small gift should be fine bec they can buy the rest themselves. if a couple has a "cheap wedding bec thats all they can afford then they are the ones that need the money more so why does the opposite happen?

I know that when a friend of mine got married that was a bit "nebach" got married, she had the most friends/classmates attend the simcha and the most frends chip in for a gift bec we all felt that we may be the only ones.

another thing I dont get is when I get asked to chip in for gifts for all my classmates getting married (friends or not, wether I'm attending the wedding or not)
if im struggling to pay bills every month and this girls has plenty of money why am I paying for something she can buy herself (and no she didnt contribute to my present for my wedding bec I didnt have a friend arrange it for me)

Tablepoetry

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 3:29 am

amother wrote:

Not so. At least not in Israel. People write cheques for standard amounts (depending on your circles, it's usually between 150 NIS- 300 NIS per person). If someone middle class decides to throw a lavish wedding, they are only going to 'get' the standard going rate in their circles. So if I decide I want a 400 NIS a plate type of event, I'm going to get stuck paying about 200 NIS per guest. On the other hand, if I hold a 200 NIS/plate type of event, the guests' cheques pretty much cover the event.

Yes, I know, it's very crass, that's how we Israelis are. Tasteless and vulgar.

ChossidMom

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 5:06 am

louche wrote:

MommyZ wrote:

There has been a recurring theme regarding attending weddings without giving a gift to at least cover the cost of the meal.

I always considered a gift to be - Something that is bestowed voluntarily and without compensation. This is to contrast with what a payment is- The transfer of one form of good, service or financial asset in exchange for another form of good, service or financial asset in proportions that have been previously agreed upon by all parties involved.

...I consider it crass to call a payment a gift. Most people are not taking time out of their busy schedules for an overcooked piece of meat or a dried out piece of chicken. The gift is something given from the heart with love without expectations or calculations other then financial considerations of the person who is giving it (maybe). I would rather go to a wedding with cake and ice water where the hosts weren't looking at their guests as blank checks to cover the cost of the wedding then attend a lavish, expensive wedding where the host had a bad eye for whoever didn't pay their share of the cost.

What she said.

A gift is a gift. Not a communal loan (at least in my circles).

ora_43

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 5:29 am

You're missing the point. It's not like a "since you invited me, now I have to pay you" thing. It's a "as part of the community invited to the wedding, I am part of the community in terms of making the wedding happen."

The wedding itself is the guests' gift to the couple. Instead of having a wedding AND gifts, the wedding IS the gift.

It's completely voluntary. If you don't want to help "give" a wedding, both with your presence and your money, you don't have to go.

As has been said in many other threads, it's not a universal expectation of everyone. If friends or family close to the couple can't afford to give a gift that would help cover costs, so they should come and be m'sameach the bride and groom at least with their presence.

People are talking like this is so hard on the poor guests... In the cultures where this is done, everyone benefits. Not just in the "loan" sense of "I helped give your kids a wedding, now you'll do the same for me," but also just because a lot more people get involved in every wedding, which gives more of a nice communal feel, IMHO.

It's not like the options are "invite lots of people and guests give enough to cover part of the wedding costs" or "invite lots of people and don't expect anything." The second option is "invite a lot fewer people because that's all you can afford if nobody gives checks." Which Americans might see as more "classy" somehow but in Israeli eyes would be very rude - why decide for your guests that you can't afford them, why not let them make that call themselves?

Akeres Habayis

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 6:51 am

didn't read the whole thread BUT
I think my situation was similar to the OP. the only difference, it didn't even cross my mind to see, who gave what, or if anyone gave anything. I only knew because I had to write thank you notes, and we gave maaser the next day. Some of my dearest friends didn't give anything(but I did have a shower, and my friends helped set up the wedding, w/arrangements etc, just so that would forgo the cost), mostly my dh's friends, who weren't chareidi, gave checks.

With that said, I have never brought a gift to a wedding, except to a kallah who had never been married before ( I think this is an important point, and I never signed it). Lets be honest the gifts aren't for the choson, its for the kallah. so your point about your dh, never being married before isn't relevant, when we are talking about the gifts. and the cost of the wedding, should be based on WHAT U could afford, not what u expect to get from the guests.

The purpose of people coming to your wedding is to SHARE in the simcha.

I have offered to host sheva brachos, and that's about it. or provide a dish for sheva brachos.
If someone did not purchase a gift or give a check, then that's the way its suppose to be, and I'm just as happy because they took the time to come. I'm sure they had to pay for babysitters, get dressed up, wonder half the night are their children ok, all so they could share in the simcha of the choson and kallah.

Its only in secular society, where the 'accepted" custom is to provide gifts for the choson and kallah. Families set homes up for the choson and kallah, and as far as being a BT, who ever u are close w/helps provide to set up your home(with showers, borrowed things).