Wedding Gift Or Wedding Payment

freidasima

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 10:29 am

LG - only the semantics.
And what keeps it from becoming a "decree" in Boro park or wherever that if you want your daughters to marry decently you can't use a shopping cart? - only the semantics.

Ruchel...what in the world do you think I have against the French? I can comment on something that the French government does or that certain groups do and give my positive or negative opinion about it, but to say that I have something against all french or any particular french people? Narishkeit.

Sefaradim - sorry but most ashkenazim in Eretz Yisroel put all the Orientals under one umbrella name bearing in mind the distinctions...but as they all follow the rabbanut harashit hasefaradit as opposed to the rabbanut rashit ha'ahskenazit, that's the line of demarcation here. It's not racism just as it isn't racism for someone sefaradi of any background not to distinguish between polish versus lithuanian versus yekke versus russian - at least in EY. They ALL follow the rabbanut harashit ha ASHKENAZIT - making them Ashkenazim of various ilks just like all who follow the rabbanut harashit ha SEFARADIT are by definition Sefaradim of various ilks. IT's not racism, it's definition based on two options only - which are the only two chief rabbis we have in EY!

Anything else?

life'sgreat

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 10:34 am

Raisin wrote:

I don't think it is such a crazy system. in the shtetl when there was a wedding wouldn't everyone make something? so how different is this?

I actually think it is a better system than fathers having heart attacks at their daughters weddings. And here there are so many hurt feelings when wedding invitations go out and you miss out your second cousin or your friend who thinks they are close to you.

yes the couple who only have 2 children while their friends have 5 or 6 will lose out in this system...but then hopefully they have less expenses anyway.

Personally it is way easier to give a check then think up and buy a thoughtful gift.

And I am sure most baalei simcha are big enough to be happy that poor friends and relatives came even without a check.

In the shtetle, they chipped in to bake cakes etc... They didn't have six man bands, photographers, fancy meals etc...

I actually think the best system would be to revamp the system entirely.

Ruchel

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 10:39 am

Quote:

Ruchel...what in the world do you think I have against the French? I can comment on something that the French government does or that certain groups do and give my positive or negative opinion about it, but to say that I have something against all french or any particular french people? Narishkeit.

You don't remember what you said on the French as a whole, and on the French men as a whole?
Government or groups, who cares.

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Sefaradim - sorry but most ashkenazim in Eretz Yisroel put all the Orientals under one umbrella name

Most non jews put all Jews under one umbrella name "the Jews do this", and it's also uneducated.

Davka the "Orientals" are those who are NOT Sefardic or maybe 5% are?

Quote:

as they all follow the rabbanut harashit hasefaradit as opposed to the rabbanut rashit ha'ahskenazit, that's the line of demarcation here.

This is true for the Sefardim and the Mizrachim, also the Temanim, etc. Those who are European and neither A nor S? It seems to really vary. Many seem to not "find themselves" in either 2 chief rabbanim and follow their rav or their minhag and that's it. I agree with them that it's very artificial. Even two Polish Ashkenazim don't have the same minhag! so two "non Ashkenazi"?? They may well have NOTHING in common.
Ashkenazim also have, or had, at some time, a commong language, Yiddish (though there are many variations).
Non Ashkenazim speak Judeo Spanish Judeo Arabic Judeo Italian Judeo Greek Temani Judeo Indian Buchari Judeo Berber and I'm forgetting tons of them. And the rest (culture, food, mentality, minhagim, dress) is just as varied.

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It's not racism just as it isn't racism for someone sefaradi of any background not to distinguish between polish versus lithuanian versus yekke versus russian - at least in EY.

Not being able to distinguish is one thing (though Ashkenazim are a LOT less varied than "Non Ashkenazim", so it's easier to understand). Insisting "the Sefardim this, the Sefardim that"? That borders on racism.

Raisin

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 10:41 am

life'sgreat wrote:

Raisin wrote:

In the shtetle, they chipped in to bake cakes etc... They didn't have six man bands, photographers, fancy meals etc...

I actually think the best system would be to revamp the system entirely.

if someone wants 6 peice bands let them pay for them. Not necessarily will their guests cover the costs of an excessive wedding. (I wouldn't) obviously D.L people are happy to spend this amount on on their weddings, otherwise there would be caterers who cater to a lower standard. supply and demand. If DL would want simple weddings they would make them.

freidasima

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 11:32 am

Ruchel, where in the world did I ever say anything about French men? Or women for that matter? I only mentioned retirement age in France and the workweek hours as opposed to that in EY.

And yes, all the groups you mentioned from Teimani to Bulgarian to Morrocan, to turkish to italian to Algerian to Iranian to Iraqui etc all follow the sefaradi rav rashi in EY and NOT the ashkenazi. while all the other groups - yekkim, polish, russian, lithuanian, rumanian, hungarian, latvian, austrian, czechs etc. all follow the ashkenazi one. There are only two rabbanim rashiim. Either you follow one or the other here, that's life. You just aren't used to the EY system here so you go and blame me again...I'm a bit tired of being your punching bag you know with your deliberately misunderstanding what I am writing. I hope it's just a language thing here...who cares what you speak. We are frum women and as a DL frum woman (or MO or whatever) where the Rabbanim Rashiim are our poskim, there is only one choice: Sefaradi Rav Rashi or Ashkenazi Rav Rashi.

You want to go and be the defender of each and every individual etnhic group, go ahead if you have so much time on your hands, but you deliberately misunderstood me and I can't for the life of me understand what you have to gain from this misunderstanding unless it allows you to get on your soabbox once again to talk about ethnic groups and their soon to be forgotten languages in the past....

Raisin I'm with you. This way fathers really don't get heart attacks. And it's sure a better system then sending someone abroad to schnorr for a chasuneh which is so common in other circles...

Ruchel

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 11:39 am

Quote:

Ruchel, where in the world did I ever say anything about French men? Or women for that matter? I only mentioned retirement age in France and the workweek hours as opposed to that in EY.

If this is true, then your account has been hacked. But since it has been deleted (bh) I guess I'm just making it all up. Only on Imamother...

Quote:

We are frum women and as a DL frum woman (or MO or whatever) where the Rabbanim Rashiim are our poskim, there is only one choice: Sefaradi Rav Rashi or Ashkenazi Rav Rashi.

I don't understand why you can't just ask YOUR rav, who should at least be willing to rule for you according to your minhag.

Just like I don't go to the Consistoire and hope they will get it, I just ask the rav I follow.

I have the idea that the people I had in mind do just that, if not they would not do some things they do.

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ethnic groups and their soon to be forgotten languages in the past....

Minhagim are holy. Whatever happens, happens, and they can be lost, but contributing to it, it is in my culture just nauseating. You spoke of throwing up, here it is!
Halevai it was just about a language.

freidasima

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 11:59 am

Ruchel this is really a topic for another thread so after this I would take it there but not all minhogim are holy. They are just minhogim. Once upon a time they were made up and at another time they were lost. Happens. That's life cookies... If someone has lost a minhog obviously it WASNT a big deal to them! Otherwise they wouldn't have stopped...you know there isn't this big bad minhog giant that doesn't allow people these days to keep up their minhogim! So maybe defend YOUR own minhogim but why are you looking for strays to defend? Mama Ruchel defender of the world's minhogim?

But let's bring it back on topic. If one would say that in our group it is a long standing MINHOG that people do quid pro quo at their chasunehs, it would then make it holy for you, right? So let's call it a minhog of the modern religious and of the chilonim in Eretz Yisroel. Then you can't attack it...after all, it's a MINHOG!!! one that even rabbis adhere to (mine sure did when he married off his daughter and when we married off ours - we both gave each other the same amount of money even though he has six kids and we have five which means in the long run we will pay out one time more than he will to us!)

Ruchel

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 12:05 pm

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not all minhogim are holy. They are just minhogim.

YOUR opinion.

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.you know there isn't this big bad minhog giant that doesn't allow people these days to keep up their minhogim!

Oh yes there is. And they are more than one.

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So maybe defend YOUR own minhogim but why are you looking for strays to defend? Mama Ruchel defender of the world's minhogim?

I practice what I would want others to practice if they met someone with my minhag.

Quote:

If one would say that in our group it is a long standing MINHOG that people do quid pro quo at their chasunehs, it would then make it holy for you, right? So let's call it a minhog of the modern religious and of the chilonim in Eretz Yisroel.

Mmmm.
Habit is not minhag.
Habit is not holy.
Minhag is not something you start randomly and 20 years later it's such a strong minhag.
I doubt the people you know had ancestors who did that 500 or 300 or even 100 years ago.

Tablepoetry

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 12:18 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Quote:

not all minhogim are holy. They are just minhogim.

YOUR opinion.

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.you know there isn't this big bad minhog giant that doesn't allow people these days to keep up their minhogim!

Oh yes there is. And they are more than one.

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So maybe defend YOUR own minhogim but why are you looking for strays to defend? Mama Ruchel defender of the world's minhogim?

I practice what I would want others to practice if they met someone with my minhag.

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OK. What's the difference between habit and minhag? Many, many minhagim did not start out because of a decree by a rabbi, but as mere habits some time back. The only difference between such a minhag and a habit is the amount of time that has passed.

Tablepoetry

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 12:28 pm

Ruchel wrote:

I actually agree that in some cases it is that way!
But just like a Jewish language gains holiness with usage and intent, so does a minhag (but not a habit).
Feel free to disagree, but it's a (my) shitta.

I don't agree.....but as was said before, you can consider this a habit/minhag of certain circles. Like Ora and FS and others explained so well, this system has its pluses.

No one is forcing you to partake of this minhag, just like no one is forcing anyone to wear a shtreimel or a wig or shiny black synthetic 'tznius' clothing or whatever other 'minhagim'/habits are out there. There is no KGB enforcement.
Everyone will still love you and be your friend even if you only bring challah covers to their events. (Assuming you are of the same socio-economic status; the poor have a ptor here). The only repercussion will be that when you hold an event, be it at a five star hotel or in your backyard, you will receive a few hundred challah covers or their equivalent.

Ruchel

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 12:31 pm

Quote:

you can consider this a habit/minhag of certain circles. Like Ora and FS and others explained so well, this system has its pluses.

Having pluses doesn't make it a minhag.
I don't see holiness in habits, even good ones.

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Everyone will still love you and be your friend even if you only bring challah covers to their events. The only repercussion will be that when you hold an event, be it at a five star hotel or in your backyard, you will receive a few hundred challah covers or their equivalent.

They can even bring nothing. But the making cheshbon thing is ugly to me. I would not invite all these tons of people anyway.

Fox

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 12:31 pm

Hey, Freidasima -- we're back to this topic already?! I thought we'd get a break of a few months, at least.

Bottom line: Freidasima has convinced me that the quid pro quo system of chassunahs among her circles in EY works more or less for the people who have adopted it. There are elements of it that would drive me berserk, but there are plenty of elements of North American chassunahs that are even more insane.

That said, there seem to be plenty of people in EY who do not belong to the same circles as Freidasima and/or whose customs are different for various reasons.

And I don't believe that the community-style chassunahs that Freidasima has described are the North American norm except perhaps for Rebbishe families or in small communities.

Let me also point out another factor: babysitting. Again, I realize that small children accompany their parents to chassunahs in some circles, but usually not school-aged children, and not a large mishpacha. My own dear DDs earn as much as $10 per hour to babysit while parents attend chassunahs, and it is not unusual for them to come home bearing $50-$60, given travel time, late starts, etc. So a couple attending a chassunah has already put out a fair sum before they have a nibble.

I have to admit to being shocked when I hear people say that they would actually decline an invitation to a simcha or even for a meal simply because they couldn't afford a gift. Yes, it's appropriate and right to give wedding gifts, hostess gifts, etc., but not to the point of depriving your friends of your participation in their simcha or even at their tisch. And if your friends would prefer you stay home rather than come empty-handed? Well, get some new friends, and fast!

ora_43

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 12:32 pm

sarahd wrote:

I agree with all those who are shocked at the concept of guests being expected to pay for their meals. If you want to do that, go ahead, but don't dress it up with pretty labels. Call your "guests" what they are - customers. And don't forget to put the cover charge on the invitation, so no one makes the mistake of paying too little. Ugh.

Oh come on.

Would you be offended if a guest at your simcha showed up in blue jeans and a tank top, spoke on a cell phone during the ceremony, ate their meal in silence, and never got up to dance or to congratulate the happy couple? If so, maybe you should call your "guests" what they are - servants. After all, you expect them to dress a certain way, pay attention when you want them to, and actively participate in activities of your choosing, and what is that if not servitude?

You can include their work contract in your invite.

Point being - it is not unreasonable for a society to decide what is and isn't polite. It's not a form of employment or a forced payment, it's just etiquette.

Nobody is hunting down guests who don't give a gift for "payment," just like you wouldn't complain if someone came over for Shabbat and brought nothing and did nothing to help. It's rude on their part but they aren't forced into a single thing.

Ruchel

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 12:45 pm

Quote:

Would you be offended if a guest at your simcha showed up in blue jeans and a tank top, spoke on a cell phone during the ceremony, ate their meal in silence, and never got up to dance or to congratulate the happy couple?

If you know someone will mess up badly, don't invite them.
I welcomes my guests as they were, tznius or not tznius, it's between them and Hashem. Want to eat in silence, not dance or even not say mazel tov? Your right. They may even have a good reason. They showed up, it's already nice (since I want to see them, or I wouldn't have invited them).

Disturbing others (cell phone) is something else.

zipporah

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 12:52 pm

ora_43 wrote:

Nobody is hunting down guests who don't give a gift for "payment," just like you wouldn't complain if someone came over for Shabbat and brought nothing and did nothing to help. It's rude on their part but they aren't forced into a single thing.

If you view helping as a plus and not helping as a neutral (unexpected) thing, then not saying anything would be OK.

If you think it's something important enough that in your heart you find that person rude and think they are not as nice of a person as if they had brought something and/or helped, you should be telling them so. I've been discussing this issue, and several of my friends said they'd come to spend time with their friends even if they couldn't afford a gift, and that no one ever told them it was wrong so it must have not been a problem.

amother

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 1:47 pm

I didn't read this whole thread, but generally, the wedding is paid for by the parents, but the gift goes to the kids/couple that is getting married. it is nice to give a gift to help the couple that is starting out. some people can't afford to give a gift. some people can afford, and some people try to at least cover the cost of their meal. however, the gift is usually for the couple. sometimes the parents can't afford the wedding, and sometimes they make an agreement with the couple that the wedding gift money would be used to pay for the wedding expenses. sometimes the couple has to pay for the wedding themselves, if their parents can't afford it, or if their older. there are many different scenarios.
sometimes my dh won't go to a simcha because he doesn't have the money to give a gift. but, I think it's nice to go anyway and share in the simcha. some people get offended why their friend/relative didn't show up, and some people expect gifts from their guests, or those they invited.
some people send out invitations because they want money to be sent back to them.
some people send out invitations because they want to share their simcha with family and friends.
some people feel obligated to give money, or feel that if they don't have the money then they're not obligated.
some people go just to share in the simcha, some don't go if they can't give a gift, some are shy and don't know what's expected of them or what to do.
I think there are many misunderstandings among people and feuds that come from misunderstandings and unmet expectations.
it's best not to expect anything from anyone. but you can't please all of the people all of the time. and it's hard to know what people want. and it's hard not to expect things, if you were raised to expect, and if others have an influence on you with that frame of thought.