Wedding Gift Or Wedding Payment

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Do you expect to pay and to be paid for weddings as a guest or by guests?

Yes it's totally normal.

[ 7 ]

No it's crass.

47%

[ 45 ]

I give what I can and expect others to do the same.

44%

[ 42 ]

Total Votes : 94

jewels

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 10:56 am

ChossidMom wrote:

louche wrote:

MommyZ wrote:

There has been a recurring theme regarding attending weddings without giving a gift to at least cover the cost of the meal.

I always considered a gift to be - Something that is bestowed voluntarily and without compensation. This is to contrast with what a payment is- The transfer of one form of good, service or financial asset in exchange for another form of good, service or financial asset in proportions that have been previously agreed upon by all parties involved.

...I consider it crass to call a payment a gift. Most people are not taking time out of their busy schedules for an overcooked piece of meat or a dried out piece of chicken. The gift is something given from the heart with love without expectations or calculations other then financial considerations of the person who is giving it (maybe). I would rather go to a wedding with cake and ice water where the hosts weren't looking at their guests as blank checks to cover the cost of the wedding then attend a lavish, expensive wedding where the host had a bad eye for whoever didn't pay their share of the cost.

What she said.

A gift is a gift. Not a communal loan (at least in my circles).

to all of you. Exactly

ora_43

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 11:42 am

zipporah wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

Nobody is hunting down guests who don't give a gift for "payment," just like you wouldn't complain if someone came over for Shabbat and brought nothing and did nothing to help. It's rude on their part but they aren't forced into a single thing.

If you view helping as a plus and not helping as a neutral (unexpected) thing, then not saying anything would be OK.

If you think it's something important enough that in your heart you find that person rude and think they are not as nice of a person as if they had brought something and/or helped, you should be telling them so. I've been discussing this issue, and several of my friends said they'd come to spend time with their friends even if they couldn't afford a gift, and that no one ever told them it was wrong so it must have not been a problem.

Personally, I have no problem with anyone. I don't even know who was at my wedding, let alone who brought a gift. And in any case I didn't have a sephardi-style wedding with a huge extended family, so the norms were different.

But if someone came to me and said, "ora, I was invited to a wedding, what should I bring," I'd suggest they give a check. If they said "no, I'd rather bring a toaster" (or whatever), I'd say, the couple will probably get a lot of toasters, but go for it, it's your choice. If they said "but ora I can't afford to bring a present," I'd say, so if you're a friend just go, they'll want your company.

But if they said "but ora, I don't want to spend 200 shekels on a wedding present even though I could afford to, if I'm going to spend that kind of money I'd rather go to a restaurant of my choosing," I'd say, so RSVP and tell them you're not coming, then spend the 200 shekels on a restaurant of your choosing. Because either you like the couple enough that you belong at their simcha and they should spend money having you there, in which case you also like them enough to give them a gift according to your means, or else you don't like them that much, in which case why should they spend 200 shekels to have you there?

BTW if your friends are telling you that they've never heard gifts are the norm, it could be because you and they are in totally different social circles with a different set of etiquette rules than the one friedasima and others are describing, and not bringing a gift to a wedding is totally fine for them. Not everyone expects a gift, some people make cheap weddings with just their close friends and that's a different story already.

zipporah

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 12:27 pm

ora_43 wrote:

zipporah wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

But if they said "but ora, I don't want to spend 200 shekels on a wedding present even though I could afford to, if I'm going to spend that kind of money I'd rather go to a restaurant of my choosing," I'd say, so RSVP and tell them you're not coming, then spend the 200 shekels on a restaurant of your choosing. Because either you like the couple enough that you belong at their simcha and they should spend money having you there, in which case you also like them enough to give them a gift according to your means, or else you don't like them that much, in which case why should they spend 200 shekels to have you there?

BTW if your friends are telling you that they've never heard gifts are the norm, it could be because you and they are in totally different social circles with a different set of etiquette rules than the one friedasima and others are describing, and not bringing a gift to a wedding is totally fine for them. Not everyone expects a gift, some people make cheap weddings with just their close friends and that's a different story already.

I don't think it evens occurs to me to ask. I don't get invited to weddings of people I don't know. I've been to co-worker weddings, but they were friends. B"H, I had money for gifts, but I probably would have gone to a co-worker wedding even if I didn't. And I bet there's a lot of olim who don't know that it's pay to play.
Never heard that til today. Just that it is nice to give something, not that they counted on you bringing and that it's unthinkable and rude not to.

ora_43

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 12:42 pm

Again, it all depends what circles. In some circles it really is pretty much unthinkable to go and not bring a gift, it'd be like showing up at a potluck to eat but bringing nothing, for lack of a better analogy. But in other circles it's not a big deal.

I don't think this is davka an Israeli vs. oleh/chutznik thing, after all, this whole debate started with a BT American who didn't get why people didn't bring presents, and was saying that in her non-frum American circles nobody would do that. Some Israeli posters understand the attitude, but it's not davka an Israeli thing.

zipporah

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 1:04 pm

ora_43 wrote:

Do people from the "always give" circle know the people from the "can't always give circle" don't know that that you're not supposed to go? Because in my workplace, there were lots of circles, but I imagine if you invited 1 work person, you'd have to invite them all... especially if you were hoping for goodies.

MommyZ

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 2:28 pm

We have guests who eat over at our apartment regularly and don't ever bring any kind of gift which is fine with me. When I got to their weddings if I get invited am I then obligated to give them a present which I really can't afford to give or should I not go? I don't expect them to bring anything for eating over on Shabbos regularly often with little or no notice. I know weddings are a lot more expensive but I hope that the girls that the bochurim who eat over regulary at my home for months if not years marry are not offended if I can't afford to bring a gift or give money.

nylon

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 2:35 pm

I give a gift. I think it's the polite thing to do, and nice to start the couple off. I don't like the "pay to play" idea, the idea that if you can't give that you don't belong at the wedding. It's foolhardy to count money that's not in your pocket, and I don't think couples should make too many assumptions about what they'll get or how much it will pay for. You'd better be sure you can afford it if you estimate wrong.

But the mentality that some people have, that I have to cover my plate and that if someone decides to throw a $200 a plate simcha that it obligates me to spend more too--no. I don't do that. (BTW--I've heard Americans talk this way, it's not an American vs Israeli thing.) I give according to my budget and general expectations (I try to meet the general standards, but if I get invited to a fancy shmancy wedding, and I'm not so fancy shmancy, I don't feel obligated to try to keep up with the Cohens.) It's one thing to say that the community should have a share in making the simcha. They do, and even in the US where we don't think of it as a "loan", we do expect our friends and relatives to help buy the china and furnish the apartment, even if we don't say so outright. It's something else to say that if you want a fancier simcha, you can make your friends pay for it. The idea that I should give the couple giving the $200 a plate simcha (and yes you can spend that--you're crazy but you can) more than the couple making the $50 a plate simcha is insulting to the couple who didn't have rich parents to bankroll them.

Raisin

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 2:37 pm

I think there is a basic difference here. Frum people often have a huge amount of weddings to go to. And less money. In other circles people generally have less weddings, so really if you are invited to 10 weddings a year giving a generous check is not going to break your bank account too much.

If you are invited to 50 weddings a year obviously it is a much greater expense.

MommyZ

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 2:38 pm

When we can afford to give we give what we can and when we can't we don't give or usually don't go since dh works such long hours anyway that he doesn't have the time or energy unless it means a lot to the chassan to have him there. G-d willing one day will be able to afford to give more but until then we do what we can.

ora_43

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 2:40 pm

I think someone (friedasima? tamiri?) already said it, but in those circles where monetary gifts are standard, the gifts are given according to the social/economic circle you're in and not the wedding the people chose to throw.

If you're on the lower end of the economic scale and they throw a NIS400/ plate wedding, that's their choice, but you're still perfectly polite if you give NIS 180.

DefyGravity

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 2:44 pm

The people that are invited to so many weddings yearly - are these all weddings of good friends or family that they actually have to (or want) to attend? Or are these invitations to weddings that they're only invited to as a matter of form and the invitee doesn't really expect them to attend?

I go to possibly one wedding a year. And these are all weddings of people that I'm close friends or family with and I would definitely give them a gift.

nylon

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 2:49 pm

ora_43 wrote:

Yes, as I said, I'd heard it from Americans. It's just a crass attitude IMO, not a cultural difference. But I have had people say to me (and the instance that sticks out most, the people were not frum) "how can you give so little; they're throwing a big wedding". (My gift was standard, not chintzy.)

Tablepoetry

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 2:57 pm

nylon wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

I'm with Ora on this one. I give a standard amount and adjust it if the couple gave me more or less on my event (if a couple was extra generous at our bar mitzvah last year, then it was a 'loan' I will repay them in full at their bat mitzvah this year).
I do not adjust this standard amount if the place is luxurious. That was their choice, and they will cover it.

Ruchel

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 3:14 pm

In the circles I grew up you were happy if you attended three weddings a year, and still I think that way.

MiracleMama

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 4:32 pm

What's so confusing here?

There is an idea in certain circles, in American society, that when you attend a wedding you should give a gift at least equal to the price of your dinner (the logic being that you'd have spent that much going out to a restaurant anyhow). It has absolutely nothing to do with paying for the wedding you've been invited to. For starters, the gift goes to the couple, even though likely their parents have paid for the wedding. Second, there are so many expenses aside from the meal (flowers, band, photographer, etc. etc.) that it doesn't even begin to pay for the wedding anyhow. It's just a suggestion (whose idea originally it was I have no idea) of what amount is appropriate to spend.

Obviously this works out a lot better in crowds where people are #1 at least somewhat affluent and/or #2 may have only a few weddings to attend annually. In a community where a majority of people are struggling to make ends meet, and have so many weddings invitations that they often have more then one on a given night, it's just not going to work and should not be expected at all.

I think it's always nice to bring at least something, even if it's very small, just a token of your good wishes. But if even that is just not possible, I don't think there is any reason to feel you must skip the wedding. The presumption should always be that you were invited to share in the simcha, and that if you were invited your presence is wanted, big gift small gift or none at all.

tzipp

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 4:50 pm

Tablepoetry wrote:

MommyZ wrote:

Tablepoetry wrote:

Cultural difference. Big cultural difference. What is crass in one culture is refined in the next.
In most circles in Israel, a guest is expected to bring a monetary gift. If he can. In other words, no one expects someone unemployed or having financial trouble to break the bank for a wedding. But people do expect their middle class peers to give approximately the same amount they gave them for their wedding or for their kids' weddings.

We went round this issue in circles a few months back. Bottom line is, in many cultures the wedding gift is like a loan. I go to the wedding and give 200 NIS to help you with your event. Barring exceptional and unfortunate circumstances, I expect you will return that 200 NIS or whereabouts when I get married or my kid has a bar mitzvah or gets married. You can call it crass, or you can call it a communal loan bank, a way of making sure everyone in their turn can throw their event.

The cheques are written in the couples' names. They go to cover the event. Sometimes the couple takes the cheques, and the parents pay for the event - but ultimately, that's the same thing, because it just saves the parents from giving a big gift to the young couple, which is often done.

To reiterate for the millionth time: no one expects you to take food from your babies' mouths to pay for a gift. Those who really can't afford a monetary gift usually don't go to the events of mere acquaintances, but only to those of close friends and family, and give what they can. I've had people give me 10 NIS gifts and I didn't care in the least, because I assumed they couldn't afford more. I wanted these people there no matter what and they knew it.

But the general cultural consensus in most circles in Israel is that this is a loan system, not a 'gift'. So call it a loan rather than gift if you feel that's more precise. It's all semantics anyway.

No we don't attend weddings of mere acquaintances and yes it does take money from the mouths of my babies. So it's a big deal for me.

So no one would expect you to bring a cheque.
When I invite my cousin who lives in a 1 bdroom flat to my event, I feel bad that she gives me 50 NIS when she comes with her husband. Because I know how much money that is to her. So when she throws her kids a bar mitzvah, I will give her more to make up for it. Not so much more that she feels inadequate, but a bit more to be polite and generous. So it all evens out in the end.

If you were part of the Israeli system, once your babies grew up and got married, their weddings would be 'paid for' by the guests. You would get everything you gave throughout the years back. It's a loan, remember.
Every bar/bat mitzvah or brit I've held has been practically covered by the guests.

How is it a loan if the parents "must" give a huge gift like a down payment to the couple? Seems the parents could pay for the wedding and the couple could keep the gifts. Anyway the cultural difference seems huge on so many levels. The idea of the couple being obligated to hand over their gifts is quite strange to me. It is avery american value to "live within your means", not realy on credit or loans or any system financially. (yeah many ppl do it and I'm including gov't subsidies here) but the american middle class value system works like this- work hard live, within your means, don't use money to climb socially or for satifaction in life, but work you butt off and become sucessfull and be self-sufficient. And even if you don't end up materially sucessfull, live with honor and integrity and within your means. Sure many have lost the value of this, credit cards don't help, but there is a core culture that hold this way. Ever listen to the Dave Ramsey show? It's not about being poor or not spendign anything it's about self -sufficiency. And btw even for middle class America there are certain things that are taken for granted- student grants and loans to go out and get an education for ppl whose parents can't pay college tuition. The loan terms are very manageable and it is probably the best investment you can make. And second there are programs for first time home buyers that allow them to put down less to buy, this is not as financially great as someone GIVINGyou a down payment or an interest free loan , but is normal for ppl to do, and you still need to be making a good salary if you live in an expensive area like most frumm ppl do.

freidasima

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 4:56 pm

Tzipp while that may be true for America almost none of it holds true here in EY.

Tova

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 5:00 pm

Hmm. The thing is I'm now wondering which system teaches better values and makes it easier to perpetuate itself.

Do the DL Israeli's agree with the system or just concede to it because "that's how it's done." No attack here, I find it fascinating to understand these cultural differences.

freidasima

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 5:09 pm

I can only speak for my circles but we all certainly agree with much if not most of this system otherwise we wouldn't be part of it.

I look at my closest friends. One has five, the other has four. The one with five married off one, the one with four married off to. All have at least four grandchildren from the married kids. All the chasunehs were like I describe. All the kids got their apartments like I described. It was normal. Each chasuneh had I would say about 500 people all told, that's small because in one case my friend is a daughter of two holocaust survivors with a very small family and my other friend is american and much of her family was abroad and couldn't come for the chasuneh so later the kids went with the parents to the states and had a big bash there as well.

But here's the catch. We are all white collar professionals or have really good blue collar jobs. Not rich by any means but we all work. We are all university graduates or have a good trade (and believe me, one of my friends is married to an electrician, no university degree and halevai on all of us his salary!!!) own our own apartments or have only a bit of mortgage left at our ages. All of us got a start from our parents, even my friends the olim, their parents abroad knew the drill and helped them with their first house too, just as if they had been Israeli parents. And then those parents go in America, their house will be divided among the grandchildren, those in the US and those in EY..

life'sgreat

Tue, Oct 26 2010, 5:40 pm

DefyGravity wrote:

Being that my in laws live in Israel, I don't have that many weddings locally. But my sister had 4 family weddings this past week, 3 the week before that etc...

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