Ulterior Motives | Imamother

MMEC123

Sun, Aug 13 2006, 9:56 am

Do you think most people have ulterior motives for the good things they do?

On Shabbos I was at a meal where this was being discussed. Two cousins of DH's who are siblings are each on different SEED programs this summer in obscure little towns (and this is not the first year they're doing this). I am very impressed because the family in general is not especially "kiruv minded" so I said (which now I know was a mistake) that I'm so impressed that they chose to do this for their summer, I wonder what got them so interested in kiruv. Oy, did I open a can of worms... Two people at the table automatically said "obviously they just do it so they can travel to new places". All of a sudden, a table full of people agreed. The only reason anyone does these Project SEED summer programs is to travel. No one does anything with pure intentions, they all have ulterior motives. Then they went on to list various chesed organizations who do amazing work and that everyone involved in each of them were doing it for ulterior motives (be it money, fame, "macher status", etc.).

Maybe I'm naive in thinking that most people are generally good and not every good deed is done for the sake of the do-er to gain.. What do you all think?

Motek

Sun, Aug 13 2006, 12:33 pm

Well! Where are all the usual posters who rush to write, 'DON'T JUDGE'??

Maybe away over the weekend Wink

Unless the person him/herself tells you their motivation, or unless their actions clearly indicate their motivation, how can you possibly know?

I think that in most cases we do things for a combination of reasons, altruistic and selfish.

Interesting topic!

How about if we look at ourselves. Why do we do the good things we do? Isn't it a combination of reasons?

For example, having guests on Shabbos. Is it ONLY Ahavas Yisrael that motivates us?

Nothing there about having a more interesting Shabbos table? Maybe, because that's the thing to do - have guests? Maybe, because the kids behave better when there are guests? Maybe ...

granolamom

Sun, Aug 13 2006, 12:58 pm

I'm sure some people do chesed only for self serving reasons. come to think of it, even if a person's motives are pure, the type of chesed he chooses is probably self serving (he feels good about it) to some degree or another. and anyway, even IF those boys are doing kiruv to travel, they will still be doing chesed. how does it go again, mitoch lo lishma ba lishma, or something like that.

and if a big donor wants his name on the side of a building? so what. we are human after all.

the only problem I see is a table full of people casting suspicion on the motives of others.

Mommy3.5

Sun, Aug 13 2006, 1:23 pm

Some people will do it out of selfish reasons, even those people can gain something from the experience. My BIL was part af a seed program a few summers ago, He came away with a fantastic perspective. He went to do Kiruv, but he ended upo the recipient of alot of chesed, he was welcomed into the communitty as a honored guest, and I think everyone ended up better from the experience.

"Mitoch shelo leshma, bo leshma"

Esther01

Sun, Aug 13 2006, 1:40 pm

I heard a speaker say that everything we do in the world of chessed, ultimately we get in return. we feel good, special.... it's a great feeling to give....
I think though Hashem made it be this way so that we will want to give.
bottom line is, good things come out of it then it's good... I think.

DefyGravity

Sun, Aug 13 2006, 1:46 pm

Who cares WHY they are doing it? Even if they are doing it for selfish reasons, most likely they'll still do the job they were sent out to do. If this is the motivation they need, fine. We aren't all saints.

P.S. who knows if they actually ARE doing it for selfish reasons? I know lots of people that work with SEED programs, and they work their ... off. . .

professor

Thu, Sep 28 2006, 11:35 pm

every chessed any one ever does is for 'ultirior' motives. isn't it why chazal say that leviyah is the only - note- 'only' chessed shel emmes? Twisted Evil

and what do you mean the intentions are 'pure'? if you have other motives, then your intentions are not 'pure'? Question

what's the bottom line? pple do chessed. the world keeps turning. I remember learning in seminary that you cannot love anyone if you do not love yourself! 'veahavta lereacha kamocha'! love yoiur fellow like you love yourself. if you don't love yourself enough to let youself get enjoyment from doing chessed, you are probably doing the wrong kind of chessed!

Raisin

Fri, Sep 29 2006, 6:40 am

I am quite sure that I don't have any ulterior motives for living where I am (tiny community in the middle of nowhere) There is one reason why we are are here, to teach Jews Torah, it is certainly not for our enjoyment and wellbeing.

We often bring over Bochurim or girls to run camps, programs etc, often we don't pay them, just their tickets. They don't even do any touring or whatever, just work very very very hard.

I think the people at your Shabbos table were very cynical.

professor

Fri, Sep 29 2006, 11:35 am

Rifky wrote:

but that's terrible for you. do you not enjoy living there at all? do you hate every moment of it? would you much rather be living with jews in Israel or in Boro Park?do you not enjoy to teach jewish people about jewdiasm? don't you feel wonderful, like sarah emaynu who was mekarev jews to hashem? if not, you are not really doing chessed to yourself. you should stop. yourself and your family come forst. but if you DO enjoy this thing, you can hardly say that it's not for your enjoyment and wellbeing....
am I being cynical? no, I am being realistic. kol hakavod to you for what you are doing. It takes a specialkind of human being to do it and enjoy it and be good at it. I would be cynical if I thought you wetre not enjoying it, but harming yourself and your wellbeing for it.

Raisin

Fri, Sep 29 2006, 12:19 pm

Of course I enjoy what I am doing, but it is very hard to live in a small place like this, especially as my kids get older. If me and dh would have been looking to a place to live based on ulterior motives, we would not have chosen here. You know, whenever I have frum guests (from Ny, typically) they ask me inevitably, do you like living here?

Why in the world do they think we would move here because we like it? Yes, there are many wonderful things about the place we live...the climate LOL

the friendly people (they really are) etc but we did not move here for that. We moved here for one reason only, and that reason is not ourselves.

I don't know about living in Boro Park....here is probably a better place! Very Happy

Someone just started a thread about the Rebbe's army, it is a great book for a perspective on this topic.

professor

Wed, Dec 12 2007, 9:41 pm

but you shouldn't say that you'd rather not live in this place. you can always live in worse places (bowo park). so when doing a mitzvah it's important to get some enjoyment while you're there. there is nothing bad about "ulterior motives" -- in my opinion, those with NO ulterior motives are wrong.

gigi

Wed, Dec 12 2007, 9:45 pm

yeah I admit it..
I do most everything for ulterior motives, and there are oh so many good ones...
feeling good,
feeling virtuous,
getting attention,
recognition,
satisfaction,
gratitude, and I'm sure many more.

I think the only thing people can really do without ulterior motives is prepare a dead body-there's someone who can really never thank you!

grin

Thu, Dec 13 2007, 7:28 am

I was once told by my mashpia that even mivtzaim should be somehting you yourself enjoy. Hashem made us with a nefesh behamis and the best mitzvos are when it's also involved. Aslo things done only wihtout ulterioir motives won't last.

happyone

Thu, Dec 13 2007, 8:18 am

who really cares why people do good things... they're the one doing it -- who are we to judge???
I'm amazed at the couples, singles girls and boys that go out to Yehupitzville to do Kiruv. It's something I would never be able to do and have great respect for them. If they're doing it cuz it's "an adventure", or because they enjoy travelling - they better be enjoying it , or else there would be no one that this would interest.
Ulteriour Motives are just fine, as long as the Chesed is done. I do believe though that most people have pure intentions - the ulterior motive (I think) comes later to make people comfortable with what they are doing.

louche

Thu, Dec 13 2007, 7:47 pm

I agree with happyone--who cares what the motivation is? who says there is only a single motivation? so what if people enjoy the chessed they're doing--surely a chessed done joyfully is better for both the doer and the receiver than one done bitterly,solely out of a sense of obligation.

as for chessed shel emes, you can still have the ulterior motive--the mes can't pay you back, but you get admiration and status for being on the chvra kadisha, you get honored once a year at the zayin adar breakfast, you get a sense of camraderie with the other ladies on the chevra, you get to drop "I'm on the chvra kadisha" into conversations and see people's eyes open wide, you get to think, hey that's me! when at the annual dinner the speaker says "and finally let's not forget the wonderful dedication and chessed shel emes of our ladies' chevra..."

I'm sorry I wasn't at that Shabbos meal. I'd have given those people what for.

ChossidMom

Wed, Dec 19 2007, 5:38 pm

What a great thread!!
Everyone here seems to have really good input on this topic.
I don't think I have anything new to add.
Although, it's interesting. I'm married to a guy who LIVES to do chessed.
For me it's harder. My husband says that it doesn't "count as much" when he does chessed because it's so easy for him. My chessed counts more, in his opinion. Interesting. Just thought you might find it interesting that there are people (like him) that just do chessed because it's who they are. He really doesn't make cheshbonos about kavod etc. I, on the other hand, am a completely different story...

I have only admiration for people who do kiruv. Especially families (like Chabad) that go out into the middle of nowhere to be mekarev. I was once in Sacramento for Shabbos and spent Shabbos at the house of the local Chabad Rav. I was blown away by the chessed that this family did for so manyJews in that area. There are also many Litvish who do real mesirus nefesh in spiritual deserts.

Ken Yirbu and may Hashem give everyone doing kiruv lots and lots of koach!!!

amother

Wed, Dec 19 2007, 6:43 pm

Chazal say that whoever sees a defect in someone else, it is really a reflection of his own defect. Meaning, that maybe someone who assumes that the fellows that go out on SEED are doing it only for free travel, is looking at them from his own perspective, that HE HIMSELF would not do it, unless he was interested in the free travel. How much traveling do these fellows get to do -- compared how many hours they have to spend learning with all sorts of uneducated of people, organizing programs and events. For days and weeks.
Simple question: those people who were knocking the motives of the SEED volunteers, how much chessed do they themselves bother to do, even with mixed motives?????

HooRYou

Thu, Dec 20 2007, 4:32 am

I had to tell this story.

When I was in sem my friend was working with a college group that had come to Israel over one of the vacations. They were going to Masada for the day and needed extra madrichot so she asked me. I really wanted to go but first I had to ask the Rabbi who runs the program for permission. WHen I told him that I wanted to go he asked me why. I told him honestly because I ahd never been to Masada before. He told me that becuase I answered him honestly without trying to sound altruisitc I could go. Is it different because it involved the mitzvah of travelling in E"Y? Probably not. Inthe case of these boys there are probably lots of ways that they could manage to travel but they are doing it by working with Project SEED. I say good for them I hope they helped Yidden and enjoyed themselves!