Gifted forum- offensive? One upmanship?

ora_43

Thu, Dec 16 2010, 2:09 pm

Barbara wrote:

Child 3 is somewhat older, in 8th grade, and also tested by the DOE. Her reading scores were tested at the 11th to 12th grade range. Her math placement was college-level, as she apparently taught herself both algebra and geometry. No IQ test was performed.

Isn't college math level post-calculus? I'm not trying to pick on Child 3 here (hopefully she's not on this forum), but in my normal, non-advanced public school, knowing algebra and geometry in 8th grade would mean you were on a 9th-grade level.

cubbie

Thu, Dec 16 2010, 2:13 pm

Seraph wrote:

cubbie wrote:

Seraph wrote:

cubbie wrote:

Not at all offensive - but maybe it's because I grew up in a house with a gifted child, my brother, academic genius. Growing up I watched him suffer socially and emotionally and I was forever grateful that I was not blessed with his brain. Now he has found his niche, and is far more content, but life for him is still far more of a struggle than it needs to be.
Believe me I daven for (top end of) average children, well my eldest isn't average in any way shape or form, she isn't what I'd call gifted, and is far more mainstream than a gifted child could ever be, nonetheless she is very bright - above average and she suffers for it.
BTW Seraph, it's wierd how much you remind me of my brother - I told him about your blog and hope he and my SIL will enjoy it - it's totally their cup of tea.

Weird that I remind you of your brother...

How can I explain it, he's the only other person I know with a solar cooker, he thinks it's totally cool that his wife crochets the plastic bags into shopping bags, he can spend all day doing cooking experiments just to get to the point that he's making his own of something rather than having to rely on buying it, so many more things that have come up over time but I can't think of them offhand.

Haha, too funny! Where does he live?

England

Barbara

Thu, Dec 16 2010, 2:19 pm

ora_43 wrote:

Barbara wrote:

You were taught geometry in 8th grade? Was it trig in 9th, calculus in 10th? The usual thing is algebra 1 in 9th, geometry in 10th, algebra 2 in 11th, trig in 12th. Advanced math has calculus in 12th. I know of one school in NYC -- Anderson -- that teaches geometry in 8th grade.

In any case, the DOE said *ready for collegiate-level math* At present, I do not have any further information on what that means. For all I know, the child knows calculus.

marina

Thu, Dec 16 2010, 2:20 pm

Quote:

The SAT is fairly basic math. It's not like a 15-year-old would have to be a genius to do well, they'd just have to remember what they were taught about geometry and grammar. Not that 1510 isn't a good score, but the SAT is a "do you test well" test, not a test of advanced material, IMO.

I would add, a person of average intelligence could be above grade level because they were taught well. In high school my teachers were impressed at how I did in a particular subject - which, not coincidentally, was one of the ones my father teaches, at a university level. I'm guessing that skewed the curve somewhat, ie, my "top 10%" was really a "top 70% of kids whose parents have a masters in this subject."

The SATs are fairly highly correlated with IQ. That's because a big part of IQ testing is affected by what we learn in school. This type of intelligence is called "crystalized intelligence" and some IQ tests focus more heavily on it than others. The WJ tests, for example, even have analogies sections that are quite similar to those on the SATs.

ora_43

Thu, Dec 16 2010, 2:24 pm

Barbara wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

Barbara wrote:

No, we learned algebra in 8th, geometry in 9th. So someone who learned geometry in 8th would be advanced, but only one year ahead of grade level.

After that came trig, pre-calculus, and calculus, IIRC. There may have been one more course in there (advanced algebra?).

We had the block system, 4 classes a semester, 2 semesters a year, so in high school anyone interested in math could take two years' worth of courses per year and finish calculus in 11th grade. There were also several kids who were one grade ahead (who learned algebra in 7th grade, geometry in 8th), who finished calculus in 10th grade.

"Ready for collegiate level math" makes more sense.

Atali

Thu, Dec 16 2010, 2:30 pm

Ora,

Calculus is definitely considered college-level math. While I could have taken two years of calculus in high school if I had stayed on my advanced math track, I stopped taking math in 10th grade. I am taking Calculus II in college next semester.

In my college, calculus is generally only taken by those going into fields that require math. Most other students just take an easier "College Math" class which is basically a combination of Algebra and basic statistics.

imaima

Thu, Dec 16 2010, 3:32 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Seraph wrote:

amother wrote:

I think the term gifted makes it sound oneupmaship-like. In the term it doesn't sound like one is saying, my kid is bright in verbal skills but lacks x, y, and z and it is so hard for me to integrate him because yadadada. What gifted sounds like is my kid is brilliant. Period.
I also think gifted parents, if they have such problems, should be trying on integrating their kids rather than giving them a separate label from other kids, thereby giving them permission to be more different. Just like if my kid is great at math I don't call them a math whiz repeatedly. They can still be normal kids regardless.

What name can you use that won't offend people? That's the problem.
Or you can call it "Special needs" but that offends people even more.

Tell me, how do you "integrate" someone into regular classes/society/school when they're functioning scholastically 2-3 grades above other kids their age? By dumbing them down? Giving them more busy work that isn't more advanced than what their class is learning? Like if the class is learning multiplication tables and every kid is doing a worksheet with 25 problems, but since the kid already knows fractions and basic algebra, the multiplication sheets are a breeze, so instead of him getting 25 problems, he gets 100 problems... (Which is what happened to me, btw.) Which basically teaches a kid that you get punished with more work for knowing the stuff. Which is a disaster for a gifted kid, btw, which causes them to act out. And teaches them not to think. And to dumb themselves down. And lots of other emotional issues.

Since you're so knowledgeable on this subject, why don't you tell me- how are parents of gifted kids supposed to "integrate them"?

couldnt such a child be skipped a grade or two? why is that not a good solution?

because there is such thing as psychological maturation. You can't take a 12 yo and put him among 15 y olds.

small bean

Thu, Dec 16 2010, 3:36 pm

imaima wrote:

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Seraph wrote:

amother wrote:

couldnt such a child be skipped a grade or two? why is that not a good solution?

because there is such thing as psychological maturation. You can't take a 12 yo and put him among 15 y olds.

my husband skipped 4 grades... and it effected him socially... he's ok - but he's not the most social kind of guy....

I think your kid can be told when everyone is doing x you can do y when your done x... gives them more interest.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Dec 16 2010, 3:36 pm

imaima wrote:

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Seraph wrote:

amother wrote:

couldnt such a child be skipped a grade or two? why is that not a good solution?

because there is such thing as psychological maturation. You can't take a 12 yo and put him among 15 y olds.

I think that it depends on each child. I know a few children that were skipped a grade and they did wonderfully, academically as well as psychologically and everything else.

Barbara

Thu, Dec 16 2010, 3:44 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

imaima wrote:

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Seraph wrote:

amother wrote:

couldnt such a child be skipped a grade or two? why is that not a good solution?

because there is such thing as psychological maturation. You can't take a 12 yo and put him among 15 y olds.

I think that it depends on each child. I know a few children that were skipped a grade and they did wonderfully, academically as well as psychologically and everything else.

Skipping one grade may be fine, but skipping more than one can be socially (and academically) problematic. I say *academically because certain texts are really only comprehensible by those who have reached a certain degree of emotional maturity. Younger children may understand the words and the stories, but will not understand the underlying meanings and themes.

ora_43

Thu, Dec 16 2010, 4:21 pm

marina, the problem with your suggested forum criteria is that it narrows the field to kids with a high IQ who also have a bunch of other abilities that allow them to put their high IQ to use. While the original poster who asked for a gifted kids forum seems to have had something completely different in mind - more of a place for parents whose kids have a high IQ but have other issues, whether social or mental or academic, that hold them back.
eta- sorry, I confused the OP of the "gifted kids forum" thread with an amother who was posting in that thread.

now on the subject of integration -
I think more high schools should be like mine, that way there is no such thing as "grade level" and skipping a grade is irrelevant. Most classes (except for English, which went by grade) had a mix of ages. That way a freshman who was good at math could take pre-calc with a mix of sophomores, juniors and seniors one period, take advanced chem with upperclassman during another, and then take English and phys ed with his or her fellow freshmen.

And more teachers should be like my fourth-grade teacher, who let anyone who understood the material read quietly while she talked as long as they pretended they were trying to be sneaky about it.

Last edited by ora_43 on Thu, Dec 16 2010, 4:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

Isramom8

Thu, Dec 16 2010, 4:37 pm

The emotional maturity thing is very relevant. My 4 year old who reads, etc. is a 4 year old emotionally, and should not be in first grade! On the other hand, my 13 year old skipped 8th grade and is so, so happy in yeshiva ketana this year. At that age the emphasis is more on the intellectual.

It also goes in stages. With two of my daughters (9 years apart), I moved them ahead in gan at first, but then they stayed in the same class for two years because it just took their peers a little more time to catch up in maturity. They ended up with kids their own ages.

One son was always young for his class and we feel that it might have been a mistake as far as maturity. Another daughter might have been better off not being one of the youngest.

It's hard to know when they are young, because this kind of thing changes with time, and not always in a consistent straight line.

On the other hand, it's a shame that my son who has LD isn't a few years younger, because it would be great for him to be a few grades behind his peers with no stigma. He is currently in a yeshiva that places their emphasis on individual success, so that's good.

WriterMom

Thu, Dec 16 2010, 7:03 pm

Just to jump on the grade-skipping tangent - my husband's brother, who is freakily brilliant but socially beyond inept, skipped a grade of school, and it was not a good thing. My husband is therefore adamantly against skipping a grade for our kids. I'm trying to discuss with him the fact that one data point does not a trend make, but he gets an equal vote, and he's very against. The child in question is the tallest in his class, somewhat athletic, and comfortable around older kids, so I'm not convinced skipping one year would be problematic at all.

There is a girl in his class, though, whom I just love because she's brilliant and a sweetie, but she skipped a year and so far (early yet) it looks like this might be a problem. This is the first year since the skip, and she still spends lots of recesses crying because she doesn't have anyone to play with. She's extremely intelligent and more than capable of the academic work, but she's tiny for her age, somewhat immature, and has a lot of trouble relating to kids in her new grade. She doesn't want to play with the kids in her old grade because she's very conscious of being skipped (also a sign of immaturity, perhaps.)

So this is an example of how an extremely bright child (whether or not "gifted") can be a challenge. I hate the thought of a child being bored by curriculum too elementary, and failing to realise his or her potential. Yet a child who's challenged by the curriculum while crying every day at school is also not the solution. Keeping a child in their age-appropriate grade and supplementing with tutoring is expensive and time consuming, and not feasible for many.