Gifted forum- offensive? One upmanship?

Merrymom

Wed, Dec 15 2010, 11:51 am

Like Ora, I don't like labels either. That's what bothers me most of all. We're turning our children into a case. Every child gives us joys and challenges. If there are people who want a forum for that go ahead, I just see no need for it, again speaking from the viewpoint of a mother of a so-called gifted child. To me she is just a normal lovable child who secretly gives me a tremendous amount of nachas (there's nothing like a kid that never needs homework help, can have adult discussions, etc.). I just don't want to make an issue out of it. If one day she puts all that brainpower to good use then I'll be happy for her, but like others have said it doesn't make someone automatically a better person. Or for that matter even a smarter person. Remember that book years ago about emotional intelligence? Somebody can have a really high I.q. and yet be really dumb. I just want to concentrate on parenting to the best of my ability.

WriterMom

Wed, Dec 15 2010, 12:46 pm

Ruchel wrote:

ChossidMom wrote:

freidasima wrote:

In any case, it's more a burden than a gift, believe me.

I agree. Thank God I don't have "gifted" children.

This is a very strange reaction. In my world no one wants a "crazy genius" or even a non adaptated "tto gifted" child, but those with a "regular" gifted child are so very proud and happy, though of course there are challenges.

Maybe this is a linguistic thing, maybe cultural.

When I say "burden" I don't Gd forbid think of it as I would a handicap or serious problem. Maybe "challenge" is a better word. I have a friend who has two deaf children, and she's become part of the deaf community which believes that deafness is a valuable cultural entity and shouldn't be seen as "lesser" - not that I'm equating the two, but this is sort of how I see it. On the one hand giftedness is a good thing. On the other, it is an added responsibility. Part of it is the child's potential; most competent schools are oriented towards helping average children to achieve their potential. Extraordinary children are not always well served by this.

I am 20 years older than my kids, not that huge a difference, but when I was in school there were separate streams for enrichment, at a number of levels. It was wonderful. As my kids move up in the grades, I'm increasingly sad that they don't have options like this most places. (Well chiefly the one in particular.) He's not thank goodness socially backward, and he's learned to play the same games and talk about the same things other boys his age do, but I do wish he could be surrounded by other kids who are reading the NYT and doing algebra at age 8. And so far he's not mocked for being at this level, for which I'm grateful, but I'm sure it won't last forever.

I would like a chance to discuss some of these and related issues without having to fend off insults.

Last edited by WriterMom on Wed, Dec 15 2010, 1:12 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Wed, Dec 15 2010, 1:30 pm

marina wrote:

I'm not offended, but I do find it counterproductively self-centered.

But at the same time, so many of the private forums are just that, including the hashkafa-problems forum that is also being suggested.

Most private forums, in my experience, consist of a small percentage of useful advice and discussion and a huge percentage of pity party and trash talking about the people who are not in that forum.

OP from the original gifted thread...

Here are my dream forum's topics: Asperger's, sensory integration dysfunction (common with gifted), how to help your kids fit in without sacrificing their personality, dealing with questions having to do with emuna (they will come up surprisingly early with a lot of gifted kids), how to tell your child they're gifted or not, 2e (twice exceptional = gifted plus a learning disability or ADHD), getting the school to accomodate your gifted child, and a forum for children who are exceptionally talented in music or art.

The biggest problem in the frum world is that it encourages sameness and people get all bent out of shape if someone breaks the mold in any way. Everyone has to be a speech therapist or a teacher or you're somehow "different". That is a huge problem and I haven't done a survey or anything, but I bet a substantial number of kids that go OTD were gifted and made to feel like if they were themselves they couldn't be frum.

Gifted kids (and I'm talking in general, not about my son specifically) have their own needs and challenges. I naively thought people wouldn't be jealous or angry with me if I brought up the topic, but I see I was wrong. I'm happy I did because now that I see people's reactions I plan on not telling anyone unless I have to.

I have a SIL with a (probably) gifted daughter and I'm absolutely thrilled for her. I'm not comparing her milestones to my kids'! I would never trash talk anyone or think I'm better than anyone. It's not like I don't have other children. I have another son and I don't think of him any differently whether he turns out gifted or not.

Gifted simply means more intellectual capacity or exceptional talent. It has nothing to do with middos or how good a person you are. It's simply a gift from Hashem. No one who wants the forum has said that makes them any better than anyone else!!!

PS I absolutely do not want anyone comparing their children on this forum: like "My Chavele is reading at 2 years old" "Oh yeah well my kid tops you, he read at a year and a half, ha ha ha!!"

Those people can open their own forum LOL

ora_43

Wed, Dec 15 2010, 2:07 pm

Fox wrote:

So it sounds to me like the real issue is not necessarily giftedness or lack thereof -- it's the emphasis on sameness within the frum community and the lack of appreciation within the frum world for various talents or abilities.

I'm confused by all the "gifted" - related threads so I might be wrong, but I think many of the people annoyed by the idea of a "gifted" forum were themselves "gifted" or parents of "gifted" kids. So I don't think it's so simple as wanting everyone to be the same.

I think it all comes down to how you see "gifted" - people who have a "gifted" kid who fits in at school and doesn't have major issues won't understand why the need for a forum (and may even see it as bragging), people with a "gifted" kid who is borderline autistic will. People who were "gifted" whose primary problem was dealing with all the expectations that come with the label may object to the forum, people who were "gifted" whose primary problem was socialization probably won't. Etc.

Fox

Wed, Dec 15 2010, 2:16 pm

Whatever. After reading all the reasons people want such a forum, I find it ridiculous. This is all about parenting our children. The kinds of issues that are being presented -- fitting in at school; needing challenges that go beyond the curriculum; encouraging special or unique talents; having identifiable socialization issues . . . these are topics that may or may not be related to giftedness. But they are topics that a wide range of mothers has had experience with.

Yes, I'm sure that there will be a few snarky comments if you identify your child as "gifted" in a post. Just ignore them; the vast majority of participants will be attempt to be helpful regardless of whether or how your kid is gifted.

Raisin

Thu, Dec 16 2010, 1:49 am

my problem with this forum is this: many people are not going to join such a forum, even if they do have a gifted kid. maybe they don't realise their kid is gifted, maybe they think it is bragging to join.

so creating a private forum will exclude this people. Have such a forum if you want, but do not make it private. The benefits of having it private are so small, and the negatives much bigger.

Quote:

Here are my dream forum's topics: Asperger's, sensory integration dysfunction (common with gifted), how to help your kids fit in without sacrificing their personality, dealing with questions having to do with emuna (they will come up surprisingly early with a lot of gifted kids), how to tell your child they're gifted or not, 2e (twice exceptional = gifted plus a learning disability or ADHD), getting the school to accomodate your gifted child, and a forum for children who are exceptionally talented in music or art.

The biggest problem in the frum world is that it encourages sameness and people get all bent out of shape if someone breaks the mold in any way. Everyone has to be a speech therapist or a teacher or you're somehow "different". That is a huge problem and I haven't done a survey or anything, but I bet a substantial number of kids that go OTD were gifted and made to feel like if they were themselves they couldn't be frum.

I would certainly benefit discussing some of these topics as they relate to my own (bright but probably not gifted) kids.

Seraph

Thu, Dec 16 2010, 2:01 am

Raisin wrote:

Quote:

I would certainly benefit discussing some of these topics as they relate to my own (bright but probably not gifted) kids.

I'm sorry, but there are quite a few topics that need to be discussed without being seen by all. Even if just the amothers who said they'd join do, it'll already be enough people to discuss the relevant issues. And a public gifted forum solves NOTHING!

Seraph

Thu, Dec 16 2010, 2:19 am

amother wrote:

I think the term gifted makes it sound oneupmaship-like. In the term it doesn't sound like one is saying, my kid is bright in verbal skills but lacks x, y, and z and it is so hard for me to integrate him because yadadada. What gifted sounds like is my kid is brilliant. Period.
I also think gifted parents, if they have such problems, should be trying on integrating their kids rather than giving them a separate label from other kids, thereby giving them permission to be more different. Just like if my kid is great at math I don't call them a math whiz repeatedly. They can still be normal kids regardless.

What name can you use that won't offend people? That's the problem.
Or you can call it "Special needs" but that offends people even more.

Tell me, how do you "integrate" someone into regular classes/society/school when they're functioning scholastically 2-3 grades above other kids their age? By dumbing them down? Giving them more busy work that isn't more advanced than what their class is learning? Like if the class is learning multiplication tables and every kid is doing a worksheet with 25 problems, but since the kid already knows fractions and basic algebra, the multiplication sheets are a breeze, so instead of him getting 25 problems, he gets 100 problems... (Which is what happened to me, btw.) Which basically teaches a kid that you get punished with more work for knowing the stuff. Which is a disaster for a gifted kid, btw, which causes them to act out. And teaches them not to think. And to dumb themselves down. And lots of other emotional issues.

Since you're so knowledgeable on this subject, why don't you tell me- how are parents of gifted kids supposed to "integrate them"?

amother

Thu, Dec 16 2010, 3:02 am

Seraph wrote:

amother wrote:

I have a kid who is surely atg least 2 yrs ahead academically and I don't call him gifted. Why don't you think they can';t just get along with other kids in their academic year? And I am totally normal - not gifted- and alway surely played with ppl 2 yrs ahead or behind me in school. I knew multiplication when everyone was learning it in school. So while everyone was writing our multiplication tables I was checking them with the teacher. Who cares? You want to stand out? Stand out. But there is also a way to blend in. If you teach a kid they will be bored and act out they will. If you teach them ways to cope and busy themselves that works as well.

I just think if you would call the forum what you are saying it really is - "brighter than average children who just can't integrate with the average kid of their age because they are too smart but also lacking x y and z" many of those "gifted" kids parents might take a step back. The term does imply they are better.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Dec 16 2010, 3:05 am

Seraph wrote:

amother wrote:

couldnt such a child be skipped a grade or two? why is that not a good solution?

Seraph

Thu, Dec 16 2010, 3:11 am

amother wrote:

Seraph wrote:

Btw, what you're not getting about gifted kids is you can "not label" them all you want, but they WILL be different, no matter what. Some learn to hide their differentness and be ashamed of themselves, but they STILL will be different.

And you don't think overly shy kids, overly spoiled kids, overly inquisitive kids, overly active kids etc kids are different? And their parents need to help them with these things> And try to helo them integrate? And they still will be different?
Some can hide it...some can get over it some can't... but they are still different and can be made to feel out of place.

Your point?
All I'm saying is the label doesn't make someone stand out more.

Seraph

Thu, Dec 16 2010, 3:14 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Seraph wrote:

amother wrote:

couldnt such a child be skipped a grade or two? why is that not a good solution?

Sure, you can skip them a grade or two, or even 3 grade like I did. But that only serves to exacerbate the social problems. Which is a big factor. Which is definitely a good subject to discuss with women with kids in that boat or who were in that boat, whether or not it is a good idea.
For me, I'd say it probably caused more problems than it solved. Which is why I'm not an advocate of skipping grades.

Seraph

Thu, Dec 16 2010, 3:23 am

amother wrote:

Seraph wrote:

amother wrote:

I have a kid who is surely atg least 2 yrs ahead academically and I don't call him gifted.

That's your prerogative. But if a kid is gifted, simply "not calling them that" doesnt stop them from being gifted.

Quote:

Why don't you think they can';t just get along with other kids in their academic year?

They can. Sometimes. But its usually the others in their class that can't tolerate them, because they're jealous. And if they skip, its even worse.
And there are plenty of other issues which I don't feel like writing about over here that you can find out yourself if you read any books on gifted kids.

Quote:

I knew multiplication when everyone was learning it in school. So while everyone was writing our multiplication tables I was checking them with the teacher. Who cares? You want to stand out? Stand out. But there is also a way to blend in. If you teach a kid they will be bored and act out they will. If you teach them ways to cope and busy themselves that works as well.

Sure, if you want school to be babysitting for your kid, you can do that. But if your kid isn't learning anything in school because they know everything, 10-15 thousand dollars a year is an awfully steep price for that...
And then if you want your kid to never need to work hard at anything because it all comes to them a breeze so that there never is any challenge in there life... so when things get hard, they quit right away or feel like failures because they don't know what it means to actually work for something?

Quote:

I just think if you would call the forum what you are saying it really is - "brighter than average children who just can't integrate with the average kid of their age because they are too smart but also lacking x y and z" many of those "gifted" kids parents might take a step back. The term does imply they are better.

If you take issue with the term, I'm sorry but that's the term used. I didn't decide on what to use.