Gifted forum- offensive? One upmanship?

Mirabelle

Thu, Dec 16 2010, 6:52 am

WriterMom wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

ChossidMom wrote:

freidasima wrote:

In any case, it's more a burden than a gift, believe me.

I agree. Thank God I don't have "gifted" children.

This is a very strange reaction. In my world no one wants a "crazy genius" or even a non adaptated "tto gifted" child, but those with a "regular" gifted child are so very proud and happy, though of course there are challenges.

Maybe this is a linguistic thing, maybe cultural.

When I say "burden" I don't Gd forbid think of it as I would a handicap or serious problem. Maybe "challenge" is a better word. I have a friend who has two deaf children, and she's become part of the deaf community which believes that deafness is a valuable cultural entity and shouldn't be seen as "lesser" - not that I'm equating the two, but this is sort of how I see it. On the one hand giftedness is a good thing. On the other, it is an added responsibility. Part of it is the child's potential; most competent schools are oriented towards helping average children to achieve their potential. Extraordinary children are not always well served by this.

I am 20 years older than my kids, not that huge a difference, but when I was in school there were separate streams for enrichment, at a number of levels. It was wonderful. As my kids move up in the grades, I'm increasingly sad that they don't have options like this most places. (Well chiefly the one in particular.) He's not thank goodness socially backward, and he's learned to play the same games and talk about the same things other boys his age do, but I do wish he could be surrounded by other kids who are reading the NYT and doing algebra at age 8. And so far he's not mocked for being at this level, for which I'm grateful, but I'm sure it won't last forever.

I would like a chance to discuss some of these and related issues without having to fend off insults.

I know a guy who was a mamash prodigy, went right from middle school to college, finished college at 16 and then went on to graduate school (physics). This kid did NOT have an easy life. He was lonely often and had a very hard time making friends. The "end" of the story is good though, despite an obviously promising career in physics he decided that he wanted to spend his life studying in kollel and is now still studying in Kollel in EY and is married with about 7 kids (maybe more by now!). B"H he was able to find a wife who understood him.

amother

Thu, Dec 16 2010, 6:54 am

Seraph wrote:

amother wrote:

Seraph wrote:

Btw, what you're not getting about gifted kids is you can "not label" them all you want, but they WILL be different, no matter what. Some learn to hide their differentness and be ashamed of themselves, but they STILL will be different.

And you don't think overly shy kids, overly spoiled kids, overly inquisitive kids, overly active kids etc kids are different? And their parents need to help them with these things> And try to helo them integrate? And they still will be different?
Some can hide it...some can get over it some can't... but they are still different and can be made to feel out of place.

Your point?
All I'm saying is the label doesn't make someone stand out more.

First of all if you do research ont he pros and cons of labeling one of the big conds of labeling is it makes a kid stand out and makes them different from other kids. Another is it becomes an excuse for their behavior.And another is it often doesn't help in dealing with the kids behavior.

But my point in writing what I did is that most kids have struggles in one area or another - some which differentiate or make them different from their peers. And most parents have questions, concerns and struggles in how to help the kid. Are we going to start forums for anxious children, shy children, etc?

Thu, Dec 16 2010, 6:58 am

Fox wrote:

Whatever. After reading all the reasons people want such a forum, I find it ridiculous. This is all about parenting our children. The kinds of issues that are being presented -- fitting in at school; needing challenges that go beyond the curriculum; encouraging special or unique talents; having identifiable socialization issues . . . these are topics that may or may not be related to giftedness. But they are topics that a wide range of mothers has had experience with.

Yes, I'm sure that there will be a few snarky comments if you identify your child as "gifted" in a post. Just ignore them; the vast majority of participants will be attempt to be helpful regardless of whether or how your kid is gifted.

Fox, I usually agree with you on, well, everything! But here, while I agree with your basic idea, I have come to a different conclusion. Yes, you're right; it's all about parenting our children. We should be able to find support on a website where mothers gather to learn from one another's experiences. However, it is clear that there would be more than "a few snarky comments" if this topic is discussed. The vitriol expressed on this site over the past few days is overwhelming - not just in the specific threads on this topic but in the many side discussions mean-spiritedly mocking other mothers' concerns. Whether or not this eventually evolves on Imamother, the need for a safe space to consider the needs of gifted children in a Jewish context in a helpful, non-judgemental way is screamingly evident.

amother

Thu, Dec 16 2010, 7:14 am

"That's your prerogative. But if a kid is gifted, simply "not calling them that" doesnt stop them from being gifted."

No but you can label him if you want himto be different. Or you can teach himhe is normal. If you want to keep stressing he is different, he is gifted, he can do things that other kids can't, he is socially different, and won't be long before he catches onto that. Or he can have struggles just like any other kid. My kid is way ahead other kids in his class and has social challenges and instead of differentiating, coming up with labels, keeping him home etc I help him.

"But its usually the others in their class that can't tolerate them, because they're jealous. And if they skip, its even worse."
First of all I dont think they would be jealous if it wasn't made out to be something they would be jealous over. I had 2 very bright, socially awkward kids in my class. One flaunted it and made herself out to be better and people stayed away from her. One made herself out to be normal and that is how people treated her.

And even if the class is so horrible, at some point your kid will need to integrate into society. And how will they never having been in a social setting like that, always being taught that they are different and need something different than every other kid of his age?

"Sure, if you want school to be babysitting for your kid, you can do that. But if your kid isn't learning anything in school because they know everything, 10-15 thousand dollars a year is an awfully steep price for that... "
First of all it doesn't cost that where you live. Second of all yes there are things they lose and gain in school. They may be bored in school, and I dare to say many not gifted ppl are also bored in school and learning things they already knew. You think when you are at home cooking or cleaning or writing on here that he is being stimulated every second of the day? There are comprimises. If you teach him he is so much smarter that he can't bear to sit in the class, that is how it will be.

"And then if you want your kid to never need to work hard at anything because it all comes to them a breeze so that there never is any challenge in there life... so when things get hard, they quit right away or feel like failures because they don't know what it means to actually work for something?"

Right. Every kid is not willing to work at anything because they are used to things coming in a cinch. That is why they grow up to be adults who sit at home and twiddle their thumbs and wait for trees to grow money to support them. Come on. And even if it was true that they don't learn to work for anything, you are the parent. I hope if the average kid is home an average of 3 yrs before going to school, or even is home about half the day when they are in school that the parent can teach them some values of working! Again, if you teach the kid well you know the material so it is a breeze for you, and won't learn to work hard in life, and you are different, sure he will catch onto the messages and act appropriately for such a philosophy.

"If you take issue with the term, I'm sorry but that's the term used. I didn't decide on what to use."

Google gifted:
-talented: endowed with talent or talents
-Intellectual giftedness is an intellectual ability significantly higher than average (from wikipedia)
-Endowed with special, in particular intellectual, abilities

Sorry but gifted refers to extra talents, etc. If it is social issues it could be dealt with as any other parents or kid struggling with fitting in.

Seraph

Thu, Dec 16 2010, 7:16 am

amother wrote:

Seraph wrote:

amother wrote:

Seraph wrote:

Your point?
All I'm saying is the label doesn't make someone stand out more.

Have you researched the pros and cons? I bet I researched it more than you. And by not labeling, what you're doing, basically, is saying "If I ignore the problem it'll go away". which only works in very rare cases, I'm sorry to say.

Seraph

Thu, Dec 16 2010, 7:23 am

Uch, I'm sick of responding to amothers.

Much of what you said are issues, that yes, should be dealt with. I don't disagree with everything you said. However, a gifted forum is exactly a place where we could discuss such issues.

As for would kids be bored in school vs bored at home, at home my son has a million options of what he could do to stimulate himself, and he choses to do that. Whether it is doing an educational workbook, going on starfall.com, using legos or other toys that use creativity, drawing a picture, writing words, learning about how food is made, etc. He's not bored.
Quite different than saying "I don't care if you already know trigonometry, we're doing multiplication tables, and I don't care if you know it. This is what we're doing. Don't get up from your seat. Don't draw pictures. Don't read a book. We're in class and this is what the class is doing."

Besiyata Dishmaya

Thu, Dec 16 2010, 8:16 am

Fox wrote:

I find the proliferation of forums to be ridiculous. The whole point of a separate forum, whether it is open or closed, is to have a place where certain practices, customs, or problems will be understood without debate or without endless questions.

But a lot of forums seem to be created after one or two posters or threads get everyone in an uproar. However, in many cases, the entire issue could have been averted in the first place if the OP of the threads in question had just communicated a little better. Or if a handful of posters were just ignored!

So what happens? Someone starts a thread asking for a new forum; enough people pile on; Yael opens a new forum; and then, pfft. Nothing. After a few posts saying how great it is to have a new forum, there are virtually no posts on it or the posts that appear could have easily been posted on a more general forum.

The "Professional Working Women" forum is a good example. Debates over the desirability of working had broken out on a few threads, and posters wanted to avoid getting tangled up in that argument. But I've been watching the posts over the months, and the huge majority are completely irrelevant to the hashkafa of the OP regarding working outside the home. Asking "What should I wear to an interview for a full-time job as an accountant?" doesn't require us to know why the OP is working and whether she would be a SAHM if she could! These posts could have gone in the "Working Women" forum just as well. And if someone gets snarky and says, "Well, you shouldn't be working as an accountant, anyway!" -- she can be safely ignored, regardless of the details.

Only children, gifted children, semi-gifted children, a little-bit-gifted-but-bad-at-math children . . . each of these may factor into an OP's question or thread, but I truly doubt that new forums are genuinely needed.

I agree and think it might be of interest to others too.

sequoia wrote:

Why on earth would I? This is such a ridiculous idea, being opposed to other people having a forum.

You wanted to open a pet forum but you were rejected. Why don't you start a thread of your own about your pet and add posts to it. It might be of interest to many others even those who don't have any pets. I, for one, don't have any pets but enjoy watching birds pecking at crumbs, cats next to the garbage, etc. and reading Ruchel’s fascinating thread on her ratties and guinea pig. She already has almost 5000 views and over 100 posts. Here's her site:
http://imamother.com/forum/vie.....ight=

marina

Thu, Dec 16 2010, 8:30 am

Quote:

Tell me, how do you "integrate" someone into regular classes/society/school when they're functioning scholastically 2-3 grades above other kids their age? By dumbing them down? Giving them more busy work that isn't more advanced than what their class is learning? Like if the class is learning multiplication tables and every kid is doing a worksheet with 25 problems, but since the kid already knows fractions and basic algebra, the multiplication sheets are a breeze, so instead of him getting 25 problems, he gets 100 problems... (Which is what happened to me, btw.) Which basically teaches a kid that you get punished with more work for knowing the stuff. Which is a disaster for a gifted kid, btw, which causes them to act out. And teaches them not to think. And to dumb themselves down. And lots of other emotional issues.

We discuss this topic regularly. It comes up frequently in the chinuch section. If the child is also advanced socially, you skip them. If the child is not advanced socially, you supplement horizontally. Busy work (100 problems) is a waste of time for every child, not only the high IQ ones.

Mirabelle

Thu, Dec 16 2010, 8:53 am

marina wrote:

Quote:

I have this with my 4 year old (I think she is too young to be defined as "gifted" although the thought has crossed my mind, especially now that I have other kids and can see the differences). She is in pre-k and is reading, writing, advanced thought process, etc, BUT socially she is average 4 year old. We work with her at home on extra reading and writing practice (we love starfall!) which she loves, but I also want her to develop normally socially, so I want her in regular school.

PinkFridge

Thu, Dec 16 2010, 9:20 am

amother wrote:

PinkFridge wrote:

amother wrote:

If you would entitle it "better than thou migraine havers" or just knowing that title of having a migraine is a title that makes you higher than someone else or implies you are more, maybe. Or that you can't relate to people enough to post your migraine question in a health forum where there are other regular ppl who have headaches who might be able to relate to you. Rather than thinking you need to be different.

Good point. But migraine getters who like HBO too is a definite niche worthy of its own forum.

Diff amother here: What's HBO?

Special Ed isn't implying that your kid is better. Gifted is.

It's a cable channel. I think it stands for Home Box Office. Or maybe Harry's Blessed Ovens. I'm not sure.

small bean

Thu, Dec 16 2010, 9:47 am

I dont understand for the need for everything to be it's own forum... I don't belong to any closed forum and there's not much for me to read on here.... why can't you discuss gifted children with everyone and whoever has info on the topic will give their input - why does it have to be seperate... sometimes ppl not exactly in your situation can understand also....

my dd is considered exceptionally bright - I never had her iq tested and I wouldn't want to.... to me gifted is not a compliment and I don't find it a good thing when ppl tell me how not normally smart she is for a girl her age (she's only 3 - so I have no idea what she will be like at an older age)

my husband is considered gifted and I actually don't look at it as a good thing.... so I don't think it's better then ppl with regular kids, but I also don't see a reason why it needs it's own forum.

WriterMom

Thu, Dec 16 2010, 9:47 am

Seraph wrote:

amother wrote:

Special Ed isn't implying that your kid is better. Gifted is.

Says who. The only one implying anything is you.

Precisely. And in fact the utter ignorance of the more hostile posters is a good argument for why the forum needs to be closed. If I wanted to discuss migraines with people who also have migraines, the last thing I'd want is defensive fools chirping at every opportunity "but how do you know they're migraines? you think you're so special because you have migraines. I might have migraines too! why are people who say they have migraines so arrogant? lots of people have headaches, it doesn't mean they're migraines. Why are you so different from people with headaches? why, I had a horrible headache just last week" etc.

You know the expression "if you have to ask, you can't afford it?" I think when it comes to this, "if you don't get it, you can't contribute usefully."