Can someone who understands Yiddish grammar help me?

freidasima

Wed, Dec 22 2010, 3:40 pm

In prewar Europe it was customary to say mammeh or tatteh or babbeh or zaydeh. Also after the war. I called my bobbeh babbeh and my zeideh just that. We didn't speak yiddish at home but my father referred to his late parents as "the mammeh and tatteh".
I never remember hearing mami, tati etc. in the early 1960s when I was a child. Only in this generation.

gryp

Wed, Dec 22 2010, 3:45 pm

quickchef wrote:

GR wrote:

I've heard "Mammeh" and "Tatteh" plenty, when talking directly to mother/father. The "ee" sound is not possessive.

The same way I may have heard someone address their mother as "Mother, would like some tea?" (Old-fashioned, not much in use these days for those who converse naturally in Yiddish.)

I probably shouldn't say "old-fashioned"... but more like, whoever uses the term "Mameh, Tateh" instead of "Mommy, Totty" is probably being ultra careful with Derech Eretz/Kibud Av V'aim.... definitely not the more common, conversational Yiddish that is prevalant today.

No, that's how they were raised, they always called their parents "Mammeh" and "Tatteh" and grandparents "Bubbeh" and "Zaideh." None of their children have the "ee" ending of their names because they very much dislike that sound as a replacement for the real thing.

rosehill

Wed, Dec 22 2010, 3:54 pm

GR wrote:

quickchef wrote:

GR wrote:

I've heard "Mammeh" and "Tatteh" plenty, when talking directly to mother/father. The "ee" sound is not possessive.

The same way I may have heard someone address their mother as "Mother, would like some tea?" (Old-fashioned, not much in use these days for those who converse naturally in Yiddish.)

Not only did my Zeidy z"l call his parents "Mammeh" and "Tatteh", with no expression of endearment, he also talked to them in the third person, the way one would today with a great Rav. He stood up when either one walked into a room, and would never dream of sitting in their chair.

My kids are not permitted to sit in our chairs without our permission, but we've lost the other forms of respect.

freidasima

Wed, Dec 22 2010, 3:57 pm

What people today don't speak to their parents in the third person?
My parents always spoke to their parents in the third person. "What does the tatteh want?"
I always stood up when my parents entered a room except when I was pregnant on bedrest.
I still always stand up when my husband comes into the room.

My kids see it and learn respect.
They stand up when we come into the room.
I figure it was just normal.

Besiyata Dishmaya

Wed, Dec 22 2010, 3:59 pm

In 'der heim', in Poland and Russia, children generally were not called with an 'ee' ending, as in Suri and Shloimy, but with a 'le' as in Surele, Shloimele, Dovid’l. After the War, it was the Hungarians, who had the majority of survival rate among the refugees, who brought this style along with them. In Hungary it was prevalent that children were called with an "ee" ending nickname.

saw50st8

Wed, Dec 22 2010, 4:00 pm

freidasima wrote:

I speak to my mother in first person, as do most people I know.

I never stand when my mother enters the room.

It just seems bizarre to me. I show my mother respect all the time, but those don't say respect to me.

sarahd

Wed, Dec 22 2010, 4:03 pm

In relation to which other words in Yiddish is "ee" possessive? In Hebrew you can say Imi = Ima sheli, but you also say sifri=hasefer sheli. If "ee" is possessive in Yiddish, you should also be hearing hoisi=mein hois, kleidi=mein kleid and so on. Obviously, no one talks like this, ergo "ee" has nothing to do with possessive in Yiddish. There should really be no disagreement on this topic.

quickchef

Wed, Dec 22 2010, 4:03 pm

GR wrote:

quickchef wrote:

GR wrote:

I've heard "Mammeh" and "Tatteh" plenty, when talking directly to mother/father. The "ee" sound is not possessive.

The same way I may have heard someone address their mother as "Mother, would like some tea?" (Old-fashioned, not much in use these days for those who converse naturally in Yiddish.)

In the same sense that "Mother" and "Father" was the more proper way to address parents until not too long ago...

Certainly, our generation has lost a certain degree of respect towards our elders... linguistically and otherwise... sad, but that is just a fact of life. The majority of yiddish "conversational" speakers (Chassidic) have adopted this way of speaking, for better or for worse Speechless

sarahd

Wed, Dec 22 2010, 4:09 pm

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

The Hungarians I know use/d "u" or "chu" as an endearment: Surchu, Gitu, etc. Or they used the full name. My mother and most of her siblings were/are called by their full names. One was called Gitu. Not Gitty.

I don't know any Hungarian from the alte heim who was called a name with an "ee" ending.

Butterfly

Wed, Dec 22 2010, 4:19 pm

Since Yiddish is our family's number one language let me fill you in on a typical conversation with my two year old grand-daughter.

At her young age she already knows (today's typical) Yiddish grammar quite well, and knows when to call me "bubby" and when to refer to me as her "bubbe"

Her tactic she'll use to exhort 'goodies' from me would usually be; "My mamme said that I can have another cup of ice cream.."
And to her mom she'll say; "Mommy, Bobby said I can have another cup, yayyyyy..... Wink

Mom responding; "Next time you tell your bubbe that she needs to ask permission from your mamme first, got it?!!... Rolling Eyes

"Yes mommy" Twisted Evil

Last edited by Butterfly on Wed, Dec 22 2010, 4:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

Besiyata Dishmaya

Wed, Dec 22 2010, 4:24 pm

sarahd wrote:

ITA

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

What about English speaking people, Jews and non-Jews who say "Mommy" "Daddy"? Do they also think of the Hebrew possession?

There's a sarcastic saying that reflects the attitudes of the generations. Years ago yiddish speaking people would call food with a לך ending: kreplech, chremslech, nissalech, kneidelech. The idea was that people were more farginerish towards others, as in לך (to you). Nowadays, things changed. The foods are called: Bisli, Chipli, Kremli, ending with לי, possessive - ich un mich un zich... שלי שלי ושלך שלי - everything for me.

Last edited by Besiyata Dishmaya on Wed, Dec 22 2010, 4:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

Butterfly

Wed, Dec 22 2010, 4:26 pm

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

sarahd wrote:

ITA

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

What about English speaking people, Jews and non-Jews who say "Mommy" "Daddy"? Do they also think of the Hebrew possession?

Whoa!!

Besiyata Dishmaya

Wed, Dec 22 2010, 4:29 pm

sarahd wrote:

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

You're right but the Hungarians were the one who started this trend of the "ee" ending for nicknames. In Poland the custom was "le" (Moishele) or "che" (Itche, Chanche). A grandmother was called Babche.

Yocheved84

Wed, Dec 22 2010, 5:08 pm

TzipG wrote:

I was talking to someone about Yiddish and she said that words like mommy, tatty, zeidy mean "my mother" "my father" "my grandfather" like a possessive form from hebrew of imi= ma sheli, avi=aba sheli

I disagreed, I think its a matter of pronunciation that mamme just became mommy, zeide became zaidy, tatte - tatty.

Who's right? Does Yiddish have a possessive form like Hebrew of adding an "ee" sound at the end of the word?

Possessive Pronouns:
mein
deyn
iim/ir
undzer
ayere
zayne

"Bubbeleh" from "Bubbe" would be the diminutive form of the word.

Sources: Zucker's Intro to Yiddish Book & YIVO's "College Yiddish"

PS I am aware that my above spellings aren't accurate--I'm doing it phonetically, since I've learned them only in writing with hebrew characters.

TzipG

Wed, Dec 22 2010, 5:15 pm

Yocheved84 wrote:

TzipG wrote:

OK, so according to your textbook bubby/tatty is neither the diminutive or possessive - so what is it??