Fire on shabbos | Imamother

Log in / Sign Up

List of Forums + New Post Recipe Box Usergroups Following My Posts Bookmarks

Private Messages Advanced Search Rules New User Guide FAQ Advertise Contact Us

Forum -> Judaism -> Halachic Questions and Discussions

Fire on shabbos

Previous 1 2 3 Next

View latest: 24h 48h 72h

Sun, Dec 26 2010, 7:53 pm

Blueberry Muffin wrote:

There are battery-operated electrical candles.

I "happened" to see them once in Michael's and remebered the time I was in the Hospital with one baby on Eruv Shabbas - and bought them for "just in case" I would ever need them...

They are cheap now that its after xmas.... there were many in my local Michaels for a few dollars.

Blueberry Muffin

Sun, Dec 26 2010, 8:03 pm

I have even lent them out to friends in their 9th month of pregnancy and told them to keep it in their packed bags - just in case they need to be in the hospital over shabbas....

freidasima

Mon, Dec 27 2010, 10:08 am

Bluberry, I have asthma, can't take a smoking room.
Never saw battery opperated candles here in EY.
Some of the places that I go have very different connections and or strange wattages (different from voltage) and therefore cant use plug in candles.
What do you mean by "look into it ahead of time?" In general this is the situation when I'm in various places throughout thw world unfortunately...
Oh well...guess we will continue to do our 10 seconds in the bathroom sink routine...

Barbara

Mon, Dec 27 2010, 10:27 am

freidasima wrote:

Do they mean something like this:

http://www.flashingblinkylight.....4mq92

They're available at party stores in the US.

Blueberry Muffin

Mon, Dec 27 2010, 11:11 am

Barbara wrote:

Do they mean something like this:

http://www.flashingblinkylight.....4mq92

They're available at party stores in the US.

That can work -
I have 2 of these...
http://www.christmaslightsetc......1.htm

amother

Mon, Dec 27 2010, 1:37 pm

Blueberry Muffin wrote:

freidasima wrote:

Ok So here's an off question.
What do you do if you are traveling and in a big fancy (non jewish) hotel somewhere, for shabbos and you have to bench lecht. The windows do not open. You are like on the 30th floor (yeah well, lots of exercise that shabbos folks!) and there are three smoke detectors in the bedroom, two in the bathroom and one in the closet.

There are also signs that if you light up you have ten seconds before a fire alarm starts, the sprinkler system in the room turns on and if you are caught having lit a match you will be sent to jail as it is a punishable even.

There are no "smoking rooms" in the hotel anymore.

What do you do?
And of course you are a million miles from any other Yid and there is nowhere to go for shabbos which you plan to spend (the next 25 hours) in that hotel room.

How do you bench lecht?

First tell me what you would do and then I'll tell you what we do as dh and I have, unfortunately, been in such a predicament more than once.

SAME EXACT SITUATION IF U R IN THE HOSPITAL ON FRIDAY NIGHT -

use a lamp or the light bulb candels - and do not make a bracha with Hashem's name

DO NOT EVER do it in the hospital or even in a bikur cholim room -

I had a baby on friday - and I went to the bikur cholim room right b4 shabbas to get some naming books and things... - there were other frum women there - some were lighting candles - and were warned by a frum guy that takes care of the candles NOT to light - (and if you light - DO NOT LEAVE THEM UNATTENDED) -

well... the man left, some ladie lit - and they were not going to stay there for 4 hours... they left.

If was so dangerous. It was so selfish and if Chas Vshalom a fire started or hospital personel would bpass by - it would be a cilul hashem.

back to the hotel - if it says not to light - DONT - the sprinklers are there, the smoke detectors as well - if you make them go off - the hotel will make you pay for the fire fighters being dospatched and the damages and caos you caused.

Either look into it ahead of time, take a smoking room, or bring electric lights with you. DO NOT BE SELFISH.

I had a baby friday afternoon. Before the zman I asked the nurse if there are any electric candles, went to look, came back a few minutes later that she couldnt find them, but will still look. She came back 2 hours later that she found them! I thanked her and told her to just leave them in the closet.

Motzei shabbos my dh came with all the kids to the hospital to make havdala for me. By 'borei meorei haeish' he quickly lit a lighter for 5 seconds then put it out. I was nervous about it, but nothing happened.

718

Mon, Dec 27 2010, 2:00 pm

amother wrote:

It's sad that this actually has to be spelled out for people. Like are people really not sure what to do when there's a fire on shabbos and they actually have to think if halacha permits them to put it out or not?? Ridiculous... should be common sense! If there's a fire, put it out and leave the area! And do whatever you can so it doesn't spread and c"v kill people even if its mechalel shabbos! People actually have to be told this??!!

I remember learning that in case of fire burning all posessions but all people are safely out- then we are not allowed to call 911 and we cant ask a [gentile] to do it either.
Just recording from memory and if I remeber learning it, then we deff did. I have a good memory.
Sorry dont have source. Would have to ask dh.
But I remember being shocked by it as a girl.

Mon, Dec 27 2010, 2:16 pm

718 wrote:

amother wrote:

Yes that is shocking! Many of us here are dumbfounded by what seems like a twisted take on hilchot shabbat.

I understand that you are just repeating what you learned and I understand that you need to follow your Rav... I just cant imagine that the original Rav that came to that conclusion was either just giving a psak for a specific situation and then it was carried over to other situations. Or he just wasnt thinking of the ramifications of such a blanket statement.

myself

Mon, Dec 27 2010, 2:17 pm

I remember hearing that too. An aunt of mine had a kitchen fire on Shabbos, she sent everyone out and called the firefighters. Her Rav later said that since everyone was out safely she was not allowed to call but should've gotten a [gentile] to place the call.

Ruchel

Mon, Dec 27 2010, 2:25 pm

You can bet that if C'v a fire was starting, lo alenu, I would NOT knock on neighbour's door and explain the situation patiently until he calls. Can't you even be sued for endangering people's lives if you delay so? Will insurance even cover it if you delay like that? Don't you know the saying? First second it takes a glass, first minute it takes a bucket, first hour it takes a well!
C'v!
If I burn because I wasn't willing to knock away, wait, explain, deal with the non Jew going crazy that I'm risking his apartment too... possibly need to run down the stairs in the dark to find someone else... so be it. Not in my Judaism.

And what about mental health? My father was hidden by a family who had also fostered two (non Jewish) brothers whose house had burned down to the ground in front of their eyes. The kids cried, yelled, had nightmares, EVERY NIGHT FOR YEARS.

718

Mon, Dec 27 2010, 2:35 pm

Ill ask dh for source later.
I dont trust everything I learnt in school. I posted it to see if anyone else learnt the same thing.

Mon, Dec 27 2010, 2:38 pm

myself wrote:

If you know any Rav who holds by this --- please have them speak to a fire marshal or any expert in the field of public safety before they repeat this psak--- PLEASE!

If a Rav gives a psak on a medical question without checking with a doctor, or a psak on using an electrical device on shabbat without checking with an engineer who is an expert in the field, or gives a psak on how to file your taxes without consulting with an accountant - then following such a Rav is a foolish thing!
We can all agree that a Rav is not a god and needs to gather both the halachic information and expert opinions when giving a ruling that his community must follow. Please if you are close to a Rav who holds this way please ask him to look at the issue again and take another look while asking for expert opinion into account.

Im also wondering if that psak was first given in a place that was suburban or rural, where there was lots of land between structures and where the threat of wildfires was not an issue - and in such a case I can understand that position... but then to take that position because a previous Rav made that psak (even if it was a great Rav) without taking into account living in a city or in an area where wildfires are a possibility is a travesty of halachic integrity.

The safety and sanctity of human life is paramount and above the law of shabbat.
What may have been safe years ago - may not be safe now and it is incumbent on our Rabbonim to recognize that and to act accordingly.
I cant imagine that if any Rav consulted with an expert in fire safety they would still be able to give that blanket psak given the type of communities in which we jews tend to live.

Mrs. XYZ

Mon, Dec 27 2010, 2:40 pm

Quote:

Most house fires are pikuach nefesh and one would be required to do everything in their power to make sure it is put out ASAP.

Could be 'most', but not always. Yes, in an apartment building it is pikuach nefesh because of all the other people in the building. But in a one-family house, where all the people could easily and quickly leave the house, and the neighbors house is some 30 feet down, and the fire engines generally come pretty quickly, then why is it pikuach nefesh? Why should it be allowed to put out the fire?

Ruchel

Mon, Dec 27 2010, 2:44 pm

Define quickly.

Our town was near a fireman hall, and when we had a fire (BH BH only in the garden) it took more than half an hour. Do you imagine what it does when c'v it's inside instead?

sequoia

Mon, Dec 27 2010, 2:45 pm

I can't believe, after what happened this summer in Russia, and what happened recently in Israel, that this is even a question!

The risk of fire spreading is too great! It is always, always, always an unwarranted risk!

Mon, Dec 27 2010, 2:55 pm

Mrs. XYZ wrote:

Quote:

Most house fires are pikuach nefesh and one would be required to do everything in their power to make sure it is put out ASAP.

Because you never know what might happen!
A spark could fly and ignite the home next door.
A gas line could explode- or a propane tank attached to your grill might blow causing a sakana
A child who is not noticed might try to sneak back in to save a stuffed animal.
You might have forgotten someone - had a kid over for a sleepover thought they got out...

The point is the first responsibility is to put the fire out so none of those things could possibly happen, not get out and then hope none of those possibilities happen.

You mention the fire dept comes quickly... well two things there - If you wont put it out why are you calling them (which is another psak we heard here - let a [gentile] do that ::sigh)
What if they dont come- there are times when that can happen - recently there was a situation I heard of that the FD went to the wrong address either north instead of south - or something like that and people did die. Again, you never know what could happen why take the chance.

For heavens sakes we have people who wont say hello to the opposite gender person because of what might happen--- you have kitchens with separate counters because what might happen ---- but to call the fire department or put out a small fire is forbidden, without thinking of the truly dangerous things that can likely happen, is absurd.

faigie

Mon, Dec 27 2010, 3:53 pm

guys,,,,,,,, if you let a fire burn,,,, not only are you putting the firefighters at risk, but you could burn down other people's homes! ( g-d forbid them in them)

Happy 2B

Mon, Dec 27 2010, 4:24 pm

I understand that there are time when there is a sakona and you should call the fire department. I was taught you are not allowed to call the fire department if there is no danger to others.

So I'm not really sure how what many people here are saying applies or what the halacha is. I guess the question is when is there a sakona to others. Is it only when the houses are attached or close together? Is it only when there is no rain and the ground is very dry?

Did anyone ever ask a sheila about this? My family had a fire in our house and I lost a cousin to a fire so It's not that I am being insensitive I am just trying to understand. I'm trying to learn the halacha.

Happy 2B

Mon, Dec 27 2010, 4:25 pm

deleting double post

Last edited by Happy 2B on Sun, Feb 06 2011, 7:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

Kayza

Mon, Dec 27 2010, 8:13 pm

718 wrote:

I remember learning that in case of fire burning all posessions but all people are safely out- then we are not allowed to call 911 and we cant ask a [gentile] to do it either.

That is actually correct. What gets left out of the lesson, in most cases, is that this is almost irrelevant, because it's almost impossible to make sure that "everyone is out". You see, you need to get everyone out of the house - and all the houses that might catch fire. So, yes, if you are in a single family house with lots of space between your house and the next one, that might work. But in the typical urban setting, it simply is not the case. Even in a "fully detached" house, you still have a problem, because most alleys between house and house are way to narrow to be a good firebreak in the case of a house really going up in flames.

So, if you live in a city, CALL 911! If you live in the country of a sprawling suburb, ask your LOR what the Halacha is.

Page 2 of 3

Previous 1 2 3 Next