John Rosemond and SPD

ora_43

Wed, Mar 16 2011, 6:07 pm

seeker wrote:

I don't agree with everything the SPD foundation puts out, but I am also appalled at how easily this Rosemond dude is trying to pass it off as something kids make up for attention or defiance or whatever.

I think his approach would fail miserably with many children, like grin said.

OTOH, for each child who does something because of a genuine disorder, there are others who do it out of defiance. Which isn't a bad thing in kids, it's just their nature. For those kids, the approach of "let's think about what might be wrong with your brain, let's figure out why clothing bothers you," etc could actually be more harmful than his approach.

So it's not that it's not real, but not every disorder that's real, is really there in every child with similar behavior.

tzipp

Wed, Mar 16 2011, 6:13 pm

Ruchel wrote:

I would never do a lot (most?) of what he says. He says himself that it won't help someone with a real problem.

But he is right about old school parenting, about overdiagnosing and "trends" in "issues", about couple first, about kids not being such special traumatizable snowflakes, about trying to be a perfect parent, about guilt, about MANY things.

What he says (very watered down) works for my DD, like the tickets leading to lose tv and eventually early bed time, and "oh it means you're tired, go to bed" thing.
Now ok, she is in a different case since she is "gifted" "only". Which is why I wasn't so sure about gifted being in this forum to begin with, but that's another story!

Quote:

I mean, the likelihood of her finding another boy her age who has a coherent plan for the future (as opposed to "I'm planning on winning 'American Idol' and then replacing Jon Bon Jovi as lead singer of Bon Jovi" -- don't laugh ... I've heard pretty much the equivalent more than once) is slim.

I do disagree with that. Maybe though, in certain circles, it is unfortunately true. If the girl doesn't like the "jokes", he has to change or be dumped.

He is WRONG because he is also assuming. We owe it to our children to explore the different possibilities. Sometimes we don't know exactly what something is so we have to remedy things with trial and error. To me, this guy shoots from the hip- he soen't really know what he is talking about and jumps to conclusions.

And here is my advice to parents- stick up for your kids, and trust in the good in them no matter what anyone says. (That does not mean be in denial btw)

ora_43

Wed, Mar 16 2011, 6:14 pm

Barbara wrote:

Here's the column re the abusive boyfriend
....

emphasis added

Do you think every person who mimics abusive behavior is themselves abusive? I think in a case like that, most people just don't realize the impact of what they are doing. A teenager who talks to his girlfriend the way his dad talks to his mom has issues, but that doesn't mean he has an abusive personality and is subconsciously intending to belittle her or lower her self-esteem.

I think the answer was bad, it completely dismissed the problem, which is a real problem. But I don't think it's fair to treat a 19-year-old who never learned how to speak nicely as "abusive," in the same category with people who deliberately seek to control and hurt their partners.

PinkFridge

Wed, Mar 16 2011, 6:18 pm

marina wrote:

freidasima wrote:

I'm pro behaviorist, and I'm also one tough cookie but as a professional I've got to tell you folks that this guy scares the s%$t out of me, and I don't use that phrase lightly.

Be careful of where he is leading to.

He's nobody's infallible gadol. I pick and choose, just like I do with any other system Smile

I don't think anyone expects infallible gadlus. Just maybe being on the mark comfortably more than 50% of the time? Even the most reputable education specialist - if there's something I don't agree with I might think, hm, could I rethink this? Or I might say, this is something I can agree to disagree on.

My late mother wrote me a note before she died. One of the pieces of advice she gave me was to be discriminating. I guess that's picking and choosing. There are some people I simply choose not to be mekabel from. That old saw about even the stopped watch being right twice a day? There are some people it does not apply to. And if it does, it's way too hard to sift through the layers of muck. There is no agreeing with the disagreeable.

That letter about the abusive boyfriend? Makes me want to get the pitchforks out. And heat them up well.

Last edited by PinkFridge on Wed, Mar 16 2011, 6:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

Barbara

Wed, Mar 16 2011, 6:19 pm

ora_43 wrote:

Barbara wrote:

Here's the column re the abusive boyfriend
....

emphasis added

Yes, I do think that someone who mimics abusive behavior is himself abusing another. If he were mimicking his father's behavior of beating her, would he not be abusive? If he were mimicking his father's behavior of raping young children, would he not be abusive? Here, his "response to almost anything my daughter says is a cut or put-down, a dismissal of her accomplishment or mocking. " Putting her down, mocking her, dismissing her accomplishments. This guy is not a "keeper."

ora_43

Wed, Mar 16 2011, 6:27 pm

Barbara wrote:

But the ease of changing someone who just never learned how to treat people and of changing someone who has a deep emotional need to control his partner is totally different. If a person is good in every other way, personally I'd advise a friend or sister of mine to at least try to see if the guy is willing to address his behavior.

eta - to be clear I do NOT agree with his advice either. I just think the opposite extreme of "he's an abuser, she should leave now" is also not good in a case like this. she should leave IF he refuses to change, but a 19 year old shouldn't be written off so easily.

Rape and beating is a bad comparison. There you can see that you're hurting someone/ doing something they don't want. With words, if everyone involved treats it as normal, how can you know?

Last edited by ora_43 on Wed, Mar 16 2011, 7:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

marina

Wed, Mar 16 2011, 6:31 pm

Barbara wrote:

My son was driven crazy by the seams in socks. Could not stand them. So we tried every type of sock we could find until he tolerated one type, then had to put them on j-u-s-t s-o, in shoes that could open wide enough not to shift the socks. And then he was happy. I don't care if its a disorder or not. If it drove him nuts, we dealt with the extra 5 minutes of getting his shoes on right, and had a happy kid.

Look, Rosemond is extreme. That means he is not going to be necessary for many children. If you solved your child's problem by finding a different pair of socks, there is no reason for you to consider any other approach, Rosemond's or anyone else's. You found the solution that works for you.

This does not mean that there are no children for whom his approach is useful. It may mean that you have not personally worked with children for whom the standard approaches have zero effect, but that doesn't mean those kids do not exist.

Frankly, in the world of special ed, there are so many children who end up in residential facilities, constantly medicated for the most extreme conditions... and yes, I think some of those children would not have been there if their parents had read a little Rosemond.

seeker

Wed, Mar 16 2011, 9:14 pm

JFTR, no professional (not one who deserves their license, anyway) would diagnose SPD on the basis of refusing to get dressed. They would need a whole set of behaviors evidencing a problem. And no preschooler is clever enough to make themselves fit the profile out of defiance. They might refuse to get dressed out of defiance but they won't refuse to get dressed AND not eat anything slimy no matter how hungry they are AND burn out the second the environment gets too noisy AND have sleep disturbances AND have difficulty focusing on one person talking (for example) out of defiance.

gryp

Wed, Mar 16 2011, 9:55 pm

seeker wrote:

Excellent, seeker. You hit the nail on the head.

And I pity the SPD child whose parents think her sole problem is getting dressed in the morning.

I have SPD too, I know it's real as ice cream. It took me forever to get dressed and out of the house in the morning. I came late to school as a teenager every single day for years. I heard people call me lots of labels: lazy, irresponsible, and more. My principal condescendingly asked if I need her to offer a treat (an ice cream cone, actually) in order for me to be in school on time. I never understood why I couldn't get my act together like everybody else until my son refused to wear shirts with buttons at 3 years old.

No, it's not only physical senses like socks seams and itchy tags. Refusing to wear a shirt with buttons is very common for an SPD child.

And it's not one issue like a type of shirt or socks. It affects sight, hearing, smell, taste, feeling textures, one's personal space, personal weight, and the list goes on. It is a real handicap which affects the child in all ways and in all settings.

gryp

Wed, Mar 16 2011, 9:56 pm

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

seeker wrote:

I think his approach would fail miserably with many children, like grin said.
.

grip, not grin Wink

Apologies to grin. I didn't realize how close my name was to hers.

gryp

Wed, Mar 16 2011, 10:05 pm

tzipp wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

Quote:

I do disagree with that. Maybe though, in certain circles, it is unfortunately true. If the girl doesn't like the "jokes", he has to change or be dumped.

It is so obvious that he hasn't a clue. My son is the least defiant kid from any child I know. He has the sweetest, purest soul. He makes strangers on the street smile, and the adults who work with him love him. He's the most popular kid in the class (for now).

He WANTS to do whatever it is I ask of him. He CAN NOT, whether I promise him the biggest toy on the shelf at Toys R Us or if I threaten him with the worst abuse I can think up (which I'd never do, ch"v). Either one causes a huge meltdown which gets me nowhere. It isn't defiance at all, he's simply incapable. There are 100 things going through his brain at the wrong time and the wrong way, and I can't say I blame him for his meltdowns. Life is tough.

tzipp

Wed, Mar 16 2011, 11:04 pm

marina wrote:

re SPD: there are many disorders that are overdiagnosed, SPD and ADHD are among them. An even bigger problem is that kids who genuinely have these conditions can get quite good at using their challenges as excuses.

No, I don't agree with Rosemond on his blanket dismissal of real disabilities. But yes, I do think a little behaviorist strategy can help, especially if you are not sure if the child actually has the disorder. If a child really cannot control his behavior/reaction no amount of punishments will help and this is not true for a child who is just being a little manipulative, as all kids can be. It's actually a pretty good way to tell if the disorder is there.

And there are times when punishments gets them to do it but you run into different problems with the kid hating it, self esteem etc. No I'm not saying you don't punish, I am saying with kids the rule in general is to proceed with caution and thoughtfulness. And of course they way you do it makes a huge difference. The attitude of "well the kid doesn't wanna, so I'll make him" is very flawed in the long run. I don't think you are saying that approach is right, but I'm just pointing out that it's never simple, and never one easy answer.

And sometimes a punishment works to a certain degree, but then stops working, so ppl think well let's just make the punishment bigger, well sometimes there is an incentive problem, in addition to a real disability, so a certain amount of sucess with one method of dealing with something can cover up the need for a more complex solution.

Have you hear this one: "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and inevitably wrong" H.L. Menken

The causes are often complex, so the solutions will be too.

bluebird

Wed, Mar 16 2011, 11:33 pm

Rosemond's article about the girl with a possible sensory disorder goes right from him telling the parents what to do to receiving a letter saying "it worked"! I see that he does not actually describe the process, nor the details of the child's changed behavior. The reader is supposed to assume that Rosemond's approach actually made the child's supposed defiance go away, but it's just as likely that, free from the pressure to put on an outfit chosen by her parents, the little girl has learned that she's free to choose what's comfortable for her in the morning and her parents aren't going to force her into wearing something that is painful to wear and she isn't going to have to argue about it. So now she can just put on what she likes and be done with it.

I see the same problem in the horrible boyfriend letter. Rosemond gave a glib answer that doesn't actually show any insight into the question or make any attempt to figure out what's going on. He just sees a situation that that fits into an opinion he already holds, then applies it. Boom! Everything's OK!

He may have some good parenting advice in there but it's probably not original, just packaged in a way that speaks to some people.

saw50st8

Thu, Mar 17 2011, 9:49 am

Ruchel wrote:

Be it a tag or a rough item of clothing, if it hurts there WILL be a mark on the skin. BTDT. Many people can't wear some things. When it becomes most or all things, there is either a disorder, or a drama. And I agree that disorders who only pop up in some circles are at best overdiagnosed.

Sleepiness or migraine definitely go with physical symptoms. BTDT again.

Totally false.

When clothing approaches my neckline, it often causes me to gag and eventually vomit. When I had to wear certain shirts as a kid, I would constantly be stretching my neckline to keep it away. There was no "line" and no one called this "SPD" (I have no idea if this really qualifies as a sensory issue).

This guy sounds like a quack.