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GreenEyes26
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 Thu, May 26 2011, 6:56 am
| saw50st8 wrote: | | Ah greeneyes, can I profess my undying love for you at the moment? |
I'll allow it. 
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Mirabelle
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Thu, May 26 2011, 8:11 am
| GreenEyes26 wrote: | It's such a messed up system, and I don't know what a good solution is.
My DH's family is in chinuch, so I know very well the cost of running a school. And how teachers are often not paid on time, sometimes for months. And how little that pay is when it comes.
But I do see how much tuition is and it's crazy. And I don't think it's fair that the full tuition we will iy''H have to pay also includes supporting the families that don't want to work for themselves. It's NOT fair, and it's NOT right, that some families tuition - and of course, the families that work hard for themselves, and probably have less kids than your typical kollel family - is THOUSANDS of dollars more than the "heimish" 8+ kid/father in kollel/mother working as a secretary family. It's just not.
Do whatever you want with your own life, but don't expect me to pay for your kid's schooling. |
As someone who DOES pay full tuition, I totally agree with you. Yes, we will be limiting the number of kids that we have because of the high cost of MO day schools and yes, we both worked hard to earn graduate degrees and gets jobs that allow us to pay full tuition.
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JAWSCIENCE
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Thu, May 26 2011, 8:43 am
| Barbara wrote: | | Maya wrote: | | They take many of their own graduates who want to teach for the prestige associated with it rather than the paycheck. Also, those who don't want to work in an office setting right out of school, and are willing to forgo getting paid well. |
Just curious if they require a BA or BS in that subject, or is any BA OK? |
If we are still talking about the Stmar schools, I don't think they require any BA.
The tuition is nice and low because the teachers get paid next to nothing, usually don't require much if any secular certification (specifically the kodesh teachers are usually not college grads) and do this more as charity/community work and the education quality is not something I suspect most non Satmars would be happy with.
It works for them but it is not going to solve everybody else's tuition crisis.
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JAWSCIENCE
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Thu, May 26 2011, 8:46 am
| paprika wrote: | | Quote: |
Wouldn't that be nice? I wish the school would enforce a system where parents who accept tuition deductions provide a service to the school. Anything from selling raffle tickets instead of a telemarket company to serving hot lunch instead of hired kitchen staff. |
That sounds very demeaning.
I volunteer for my kids school. I would stop doing it if it becomes a job for the people that don't pay full tuition. |
This is a valid point. If this volunteer work is public, like serving lunches, and everyone knows it is required of families that are not paying, then it really humiliating. I can just see the teasing from some of the kids.... Not worth doing that to them.
If it was done optionally and paying families also pitched in, or if it was done behind the scenes - for instance if you provide some service or other that is related to your business and nobody has to know you are not getting paid, it could maybe work out.
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Hashem_Yaazor
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Thu, May 26 2011, 8:50 am
| GreenEyes26 wrote: | It's such a messed up system, and I don't know what a good solution is.
My DH's family is in chinuch, so I know very well the cost of running a school. And how teachers are often not paid on time, sometimes for months. And how little that pay is when it comes.
But I do see how much tuition is and it's crazy. And I don't think it's fair that the full tuition we will iy''H have to pay also includes supporting the families that don't want to work for themselves. It's NOT fair, and it's NOT right, that some families tuition - and of course, the families that work hard for themselves, and probably have less kids than your typical kollel family - is THOUSANDS of dollars more than the "heimish" 8+ kid/father in kollel/mother working as a secretary family. It's just not.
Do whatever you want with your own life, but don't expect me to pay for your kid's schooling. | Did you read what you just wrote?
That full tuition doesn't cover one kid, so your money is NOT going to support the other families not paying full tuition?
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Hashem_Yaazor
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Thu, May 26 2011, 8:52 am
| JAWSCIENCE wrote: | | paprika wrote: | | Quote: |
Wouldn't that be nice? I wish the school would enforce a system where parents who accept tuition deductions provide a service to the school. Anything from selling raffle tickets instead of a telemarket company to serving hot lunch instead of hired kitchen staff. |
That sounds very demeaning.
I volunteer for my kids school. I would stop doing it if it becomes a job for the people that don't pay full tuition. |
This is a valid point. If this volunteer work is public, like serving lunches, and everyone knows it is required of families that are not paying, then it really humiliating. I can just see the teasing from some of the kids.... Not worth doing that to them.
If it was done optionally and paying families also pitched in, or if it was done behind the scenes - for instance if you provide some service or other that is related to your business and nobody has to know you are not getting paid, it could maybe work out. |
My sons' school has a program that anyone who gets a break has to contribute X amount of time worth a specific amount to the school. This can be done via fundraising calls, substitute teaching, PTA, etc -- the school says how many hours per task will equal up to the number to fulfill your obligation.
I don't think anyone feels humiliated.
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GreenEyes26
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Thu, May 26 2011, 8:56 am
| Hashem_Yaazor wrote: | | GreenEyes26 wrote: | It's such a messed up system, and I don't know what a good solution is.
My DH's family is in chinuch, so I know very well the cost of running a school. And how teachers are often not paid on time, sometimes for months. And how little that pay is when it comes.
But I do see how much tuition is and it's crazy. And I don't think it's fair that the full tuition we will iy''H have to pay also includes supporting the families that don't want to work for themselves. It's NOT fair, and it's NOT right, that some families tuition - and of course, the families that work hard for themselves, and probably have less kids than your typical kollel family - is THOUSANDS of dollars more than the "heimish" 8+ kid/father in kollel/mother working as a secretary family. It's just not.
Do whatever you want with your own life, but don't expect me to pay for your kid's schooling. | Did you read what you just wrote?
That full tuition doesn't cover one kid, so your money is NOT going to support the other families not paying full tuition? |
Huh????
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Hashem_Yaazor
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Thu, May 26 2011, 9:40 am
You wrote:
| Quote: | | And I don't think it's fair that the full tuition we will iy''H have to pay also includes supporting the families that don't want to work for themselves |
That's not true.
It's going to your child's education, and his alone. That in and of itself is barely enough to pay his education, but your money is not going to support families that "don't want to work for themselves". Besides the fallacy that these families "don't want to work for themselves" (talk about assumptions), it's simply not true that your money is going to cover their tuition.
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JAWSCIENCE
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Thu, May 26 2011, 9:57 am
| Hashem_Yaazor wrote: | | JAWSCIENCE wrote: | | paprika wrote: | | Quote: |
Wouldn't that be nice? I wish the school would enforce a system where parents who accept tuition deductions provide a service to the school. Anything from selling raffle tickets instead of a telemarket company to serving hot lunch instead of hired kitchen staff. |
That sounds very demeaning.
I volunteer for my kids school. I would stop doing it if it becomes a job for the people that don't pay full tuition. |
This is a valid point. If this volunteer work is public, like serving lunches, and everyone knows it is required of families that are not paying, then it really humiliating. I can just see the teasing from some of the kids.... Not worth doing that to them.
If it was done optionally and paying families also pitched in, or if it was done behind the scenes - for instance if you provide some service or other that is related to your business and nobody has to know you are not getting paid, it could maybe work out. |
My sons' school has a program that anyone who gets a break has to contribute X amount of time worth a specific amount to the school. This can be done via fundraising calls, substitute teaching, PTA, etc -- the school says how many hours per task will equal up to the number to fulfill your obligation.
I don't think anyone feels humiliated. |
That sounds great to me. They are involved int eh school but in a away that does not necessarily mean they are not paying - plenty of paying people fundraise and are part of the PTA. The school gets a service, the parents contribute and no one has to know. Someone else mentioned forcing families to serve the school lunches so that they don't have to pay lunch ladies. That sounded sort of embarrassing/crossing a line to me.
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Barbara
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Thu, May 26 2011, 9:59 am
| Hashem_Yaazor wrote: | You wrote:
| Quote: | | And I don't think it's fair that the full tuition we will iy''H have to pay also includes supporting the families that don't want to work for themselves |
That's not true.
It's going to your child's education, and his alone. That in and of itself is barely enough to pay his education, but your money is not going to support families that "don't want to work for themselves". Besides the fallacy that these families "don't want to work for themselves" (talk about assumptions), it's simply not true that your money is going to cover their tuition. |
It depends how you look at it. Funding is from three general sources -- tuition, fund raising (including endowments) and government funding. Anything that cannot be raised by the latter two has to be paid by the first. So even if fund raising and government aid do cover a *portion* of the actual cost of educating a child who pays full tuition, that child's tuition is still higher to cover the unfunded potion of scholarship kids.
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Hashem_Yaazor
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Thu, May 26 2011, 10:17 am
| JAWSCIENCE wrote: | | Hashem_Yaazor wrote: | | JAWSCIENCE wrote: | | paprika wrote: | | Quote: |
Wouldn't that be nice? I wish the school would enforce a system where parents who accept tuition deductions provide a service to the school. Anything from selling raffle tickets instead of a telemarket company to serving hot lunch instead of hired kitchen staff. |
That sounds very demeaning.
I volunteer for my kids school. I would stop doing it if it becomes a job for the people that don't pay full tuition. |
This is a valid point. If this volunteer work is public, like serving lunches, and everyone knows it is required of families that are not paying, then it really humiliating. I can just see the teasing from some of the kids.... Not worth doing that to them.
If it was done optionally and paying families also pitched in, or if it was done behind the scenes - for instance if you provide some service or other that is related to your business and nobody has to know you are not getting paid, it could maybe work out. |
My sons' school has a program that anyone who gets a break has to contribute X amount of time worth a specific amount to the school. This can be done via fundraising calls, substitute teaching, PTA, etc -- the school says how many hours per task will equal up to the number to fulfill your obligation.
I don't think anyone feels humiliated. |
That sounds great to me. They are involved int eh school but in a away that does not necessarily mean they are not paying - plenty of paying people fundraise and are part of the PTA. The school gets a service, the parents contribute and no one has to know. Someone else mentioned forcing families to serve the school lunches so that they don't have to pay lunch ladies. That sounded sort of embarrassing/crossing a line to me. | I don't know -- growing up, lots of parents served lunch in our small community school, or if not, prepared food beforehand...I never even associated it with tuition break. I have no idea if it had to do with it or not till this day. I thought all parents did it.
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Hashem_Yaazor
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Thu, May 26 2011, 10:20 am
| Barbara wrote: | | Hashem_Yaazor wrote: | You wrote:
| Quote: | | And I don't think it's fair that the full tuition we will iy''H have to pay also includes supporting the families that don't want to work for themselves |
That's not true.
It's going to your child's education, and his alone. That in and of itself is barely enough to pay his education, but your money is not going to support families that "don't want to work for themselves". Besides the fallacy that these families "don't want to work for themselves" (talk about assumptions), it's simply not true that your money is going to cover their tuition. |
It depends how you look at it. Funding is from three general sources -- tuition, fund raising (including endowments) and government funding. Anything that cannot be raised by the latter two has to be paid by the first. So even if fund raising and government aid do cover a *portion* of the actual cost of educating a child who pays full tuition, that child's tuition is still higher to cover the unfunded potion of scholarship kids. |
Or you can look at it that it costs 10K to educate a student in School X. Tuition is 9K.
There are 100 students. 40 pay full tuition. the extra 40K comes from the government, and the fundraisers work harder to pay the deficit of the 60 students.
But the tuition is the same, regardless of how many get breaks; it just is a matter of how much needs to be fundraised extra.
(Yes, I know those are simplistic numbers  )
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amother
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Thu, May 26 2011, 1:56 pm
| Hashem_Yaazor wrote: | | JAWSCIENCE wrote: | | Hashem_Yaazor wrote: | | JAWSCIENCE wrote: | | paprika wrote: | | Quote: |
Wouldn't that be nice? I wish the school would enforce a system where parents who accept tuition deductions provide a service to the school. Anything from selling raffle tickets instead of a telemarket company to serving hot lunch instead of hired kitchen staff. |
That sounds very demeaning.
I volunteer for my kids school. I would stop doing it if it becomes a job for the people that don't pay full tuition. |
This is a valid point. If this volunteer work is public, like serving lunches, and everyone knows it is required of families that are not paying, then it really humiliating. I can just see the teasing from some of the kids.... Not worth doing that to them.
If it was done optionally and paying families also pitched in, or if it was done behind the scenes - for instance if you provide some service or other that is related to your business and nobody has to know you are not getting paid, it could maybe work out. |
My sons' school has a program that anyone who gets a break has to contribute X amount of time worth a specific amount to the school. This can be done via fundraising calls, substitute teaching, PTA, etc -- the school says how many hours per task will equal up to the number to fulfill your obligation.
I don't think anyone feels humiliated. |
That sounds great to me. They are involved int eh school but in a away that does not necessarily mean they are not paying - plenty of paying people fundraise and are part of the PTA. The school gets a service, the parents contribute and no one has to know. Someone else mentioned forcing families to serve the school lunches so that they don't have to pay lunch ladies. That sounded sort of embarrassing/crossing a line to me. | I don't know -- growing up, lots of parents served lunch in our small community school, or if not, prepared food beforehand...I never even associated it with tuition break. I have no idea if it had to do with it or not till this day. I thought all parents did it. |
Agree. I did not mean that in a humiliating way. I don't think people would associate it with tuition discounts. The school announces that anyone can sign up to be a "lunch mommy" or something like that, with only people getting discounts being told how many hours they "owe" to the school, as HY mentioned.
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farm
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Thu, May 26 2011, 1:57 pm
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Whoops! didn't mean to me anonymous!
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GreenEyes26
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Thu, May 26 2011, 2:08 pm
| Hashem_Yaazor wrote: | | Barbara wrote: | | Hashem_Yaazor wrote: | You wrote:
| Quote: | | And I don't think it's fair that the full tuition we will iy''H have to pay also includes supporting the families that don't want to work for themselves |
That's not true.
It's going to your child's education, and his alone. That in and of itself is barely enough to pay his education, but your money is not going to support families that "don't want to work for themselves". Besides the fallacy that these families "don't want to work for themselves" (talk about assumptions), it's simply not true that your money is going to cover their tuition. |
It depends how you look at it. Funding is from three general sources -- tuition, fund raising (including endowments) and government funding. Anything that cannot be raised by the latter two has to be paid by the first. So even if fund raising and government aid do cover a *portion* of the actual cost of educating a child who pays full tuition, that child's tuition is still higher to cover the unfunded potion of scholarship kids. |
Or you can look at it that it costs 10K to educate a student in School X. Tuition is 9K.
There are 100 students. 40 pay full tuition. the extra 40K comes from the government, and the fundraisers work harder to pay the deficit of the 60 students.
But the tuition is the same, regardless of how many get breaks; it just is a matter of how much needs to be fundraised extra.
(Yes, I know those are simplistic numbers ) |
Why are you starting from a 10k tuiton cost that they're charging just 9k for? In my experience, if it costs 10k to educate a child, they're charging 12-14k, to cover the cost of the many families that will only pay 5k. I can't do the math right now, but I can tell you with 100 percent certanty (sp) that schools charge more for full tuition because they know most of their students - and the more yeshivish your school, the higher the majority - won't be paying it.
So when the time comes, I'll be paying for a child-and-a-half because Mrs. Shmerel had six children even though her husband still learns in kollel after 20 years and she never got a decent college education, or worse yet, she's a SAHM completly living off food stamps, WIC, section 8, etc.
Like I said before, do whatever you want. But it's not fair for me to educate my child for an obscene amount of money because you have too many children to educate.
But that's the system, and I don't see any way to fix it. At the end of the day, your either paying too-high "full tuition" or you're on scholarship and someone else is pickin' up the slack.
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Hashem_Yaazor
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Thu, May 26 2011, 2:17 pm
And I can refute that from school administrators, tuition committees, principals, board members, fundraisers, etc from schools all over the country.
Every. Single. One has told me or written publicly (and mind you, I have not spoken to a member of every school to say this is a 100% true -- but it seems to be quite the majority) that the cost of tuition is enough (or not) for ONE child. Tuition is not raised to count for students on scholarship. You're not paying extra for people who get breaks.
You can feel upset that you're working harder and paying more, but you should not feel upset (unless the school you send to is vastly different than the schools I have heard from) that you're also paying for others' kids.
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Barbara
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Thu, May 26 2011, 2:22 pm
| Hashem_Yaazor wrote: | | Barbara wrote: | | Hashem_Yaazor wrote: | You wrote:
| Quote: | | And I don't think it's fair that the full tuition we will iy''H have to pay also includes supporting the families that don't want to work for themselves |
That's not true.
It's going to your child's education, and his alone. That in and of itself is barely enough to pay his education, but your money is not going to support families that "don't want to work for themselves". Besides the fallacy that these families "don't want to work for themselves" (talk about assumptions), it's simply not true that your money is going to cover their tuition. |
It depends how you look at it. Funding is from three general sources -- tuition, fund raising (including endowments) and government funding. Anything that cannot be raised by the latter two has to be paid by the first. So even if fund raising and government aid do cover a *portion* of the actual cost of educating a child who pays full tuition, that child's tuition is still higher to cover the unfunded potion of scholarship kids. |
Or you can look at it that it costs 10K to educate a student in School X. Tuition is 9K.
There are 100 students. 40 pay full tuition. the extra 40K comes from the government, and the fundraisers work harder to pay the deficit of the 60 students.
But the tuition is the same, regardless of how many get breaks; it just is a matter of how much needs to be fundraised extra.
(Yes, I know those are simplistic numbers ) |
But its never an issue of gee, we'll just fundraise to make ends meet. Its always get as much as we can in fundraising.
There's just no way around the fact that people who pay full tuition foot the bill for people who don't.
If you don't believe that ... what if, in your example, the 40 kids paying full tuition stopped, either by withdrawing from the school or by having parents who cannot (or will not) pay. How long would the school survive? If the school can survive with no one paying tuition, then why charge tuition?
The fact that parents who pay support those who don't is not always a bad thing. I'm glad that my friend whose ex-husband emptied out their bank accounts and fled the country can still send her kids to day school. Just like I'm glad that all the families who are struggling in this economic crisis, or unable to work due to health issues, or any number of other things, can still send their kids. Its just not sustainable for the long term to have a large proportion of students paying reduced tuition.
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amother
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Thu, May 26 2011, 2:41 pm
| Hashem_Yaazor wrote: | And I can refute that from school administrators, tuition committees, principals, board members, fundraisers, etc from schools all over the country.
Every. Single. One has told me or written publicly (and mind you, I have not spoken to a member of every school to say this is a 100% true -- but it seems to be quite the majority) that the cost of tuition is enough (or not) for ONE child. Tuition is not raised to count for students on scholarship. You're not paying extra for people who get breaks.
You can feel upset that you're working harder and paying more, but you should not feel upset (unless the school you send to is vastly different than the schools I have heard from) that you're also paying for others' kids. |
I'd like to know how many different schools you surveyed and what types they were (I.e., MO day schools, chasidush yeshivos, etc.)
This makes absolutely no sense at all. If it costs $10K to educate a child, why set full tuition lower than that?
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amother
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Thu, May 26 2011, 2:53 pm
| amother wrote: | | This makes absolutely no sense at all. If it costs $10K to educate a child, why set full tuition lower than that? |
So people won't be scared off by sticker shock! Perhaps so they won't have to process so many applications for financial aid.
Our MO day school tuition (including book fee, building fee, etc etc etc) is >16K. Just a hunch, but I think that's why they have so many little fees. It makes the tuition look lower.
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Raisin
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Thu, May 26 2011, 3:02 pm
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I don't understand why people who so strongly disagree with the kollel lifestyle are sending their kids to schools that promote it. Apart from anything else, what do you think YOUR kids will want to do when they grow up?
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