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amother
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 Thu, May 26 2011, 3:11 pm
| amother wrote: | | amother wrote: | | This makes absolutely no sense at all. If it costs $10K to educate a child, why set full tuition lower than that? |
So people won't be scared off by sticker shock! Perhaps so they won't have to process so many applications for financial aid.
Our MO day school tuition (including book fee, building fee, etc etc etc) is >16K. Just a hunch, but I think that's why they have so many little fees. It makes the tuition look lower. |
a $1K (hypothetical) savings isn't going to save anyone from sticker shock; it's just going to create an insane fundraising requirement when multiplied by the total number of kids in the school. And that would be on top of the fundraising requirement for kids who can't afford even the reduced tuition. It makes no fiscal sense. I'm sure it would be a whole lot easier to process some more financial aid applications than to raise the additional funds this built in deficit would require.
you think your MO day scolld really needs $18K to educate your child but they are charging less so you don't go running to the chasidush yeshivah across town that charges less than half that?
completely agree with you on the fees though.
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Raisin
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Thu, May 26 2011, 3:18 pm
check this out...looks interesting. Although $8000 is a lot of money I assume it is a lot less then other M.O schools are charging.
http://www.wocy.org/home/faq
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farm
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Thu, May 26 2011, 3:19 pm
| Hashem_Yaazor wrote: | And I can refute that from school administrators, tuition committees, principals, board members, fundraisers, etc from schools all over the country.
Every. Single. One has told me or written publicly (and mind you, I have not spoken to a member of every school to say this is a 100% true -- but it seems to be quite the majority) that the cost of tuition is enough (or not) for ONE child. Tuition is not raised to count for students on scholarship. You're not paying extra for people who get breaks.
You can feel upset that you're working harder and paying more, but you should not feel upset (unless the school you send to is vastly different than the schools I have heard from) that you're also paying for others' kids. |
When I was younger, my parents asked how much of the tuition is for their child and how much covers others so that they can use maaser for that part. The school said 100% of the requested tuition is used for your child. Now my child is going to the same school. This year the tuition bill is lower than last year, with a request for a $2,500 tax deductable donation for the scholarship fund. Suddenly the 100% tuition that only covered my child last year includes a donation to the scholarship fund this year (not that I'm complaining- thanks yeshiva for instituting that change and allowing us to get a tax deduction for part of the tuition!) . So just to spell it out so that my point is crystal clear: tuition raised definitely accounts for students on scholarship. You are definitely paying extra for people who get breaks.
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amother
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Thu, May 26 2011, 3:26 pm
| farm wrote: | | Hashem_Yaazor wrote: | And I can refute that from school administrators, tuition committees, principals, board members, fundraisers, etc from schools all over the country.
Every. Single. One has told me or written publicly (and mind you, I have not spoken to a member of every school to say this is a 100% true -- but it seems to be quite the majority) that the cost of tuition is enough (or not) for ONE child. Tuition is not raised to count for students on scholarship. You're not paying extra for people who get breaks.
You can feel upset that you're working harder and paying more, but you should not feel upset (unless the school you send to is vastly different than the schools I have heard from) that you're also paying for others' kids. |
When I was younger, my parents asked how much of the tuition is for their child and how much covers others so that they can use maaser for that part. The school said 100% of the requested tuition is used for your child. Now my child is going to the same school. This year the tuition bill is lower than last year, with a request for a $2,500 tax deductable donation for the scholarship fund. Suddenly the 100% tuition that only covered my child last year includes a donation to the scholarship fund this year (not that I'm complaining- thanks yeshiva for instituting that change and allowing us to get a tax deduction for part of the tuition!) . So just to spell it out so that my point is crystal clear: tuition raised definitely accounts for students on scholarship. You are definitely paying extra for people who get breaks. |
wow! I wish my school would do that. I can't even get them to figure out how much I can use from maaser (although they admit I'm subsidizing other kids) forget about a tax deduction.
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Raisin
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Thu, May 26 2011, 4:08 pm
| farm wrote: | | Hashem_Yaazor wrote: | And I can refute that from school administrators, tuition committees, principals, board members, fundraisers, etc from schools all over the country.
Every. Single. One has told me or written publicly (and mind you, I have not spoken to a member of every school to say this is a 100% true -- but it seems to be quite the majority) that the cost of tuition is enough (or not) for ONE child. Tuition is not raised to count for students on scholarship. You're not paying extra for people who get breaks.
You can feel upset that you're working harder and paying more, but you should not feel upset (unless the school you send to is vastly different than the schools I have heard from) that you're also paying for others' kids. |
When I was younger, my parents asked how much of the tuition is for their child and how much covers others so that they can use maaser for that part. The school said 100% of the requested tuition is used for your child. Now my child is going to the same school. This year the tuition bill is lower than last year, with a request for a $2,500 tax deductable donation for the scholarship fund. Suddenly the 100% tuition that only covered my child last year includes a donation to the scholarship fund this year (not that I'm complaining- thanks yeshiva for instituting that change and allowing us to get a tax deduction for part of the tuition!) . So just to spell it out so that my point is crystal clear: tuition raised definitely accounts for students on scholarship. You are definitely paying extra for people who get breaks. |
not really. It might just be some very clever and creative thinking on the part of the administration.
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amother
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Thu, May 26 2011, 4:20 pm
| Raisin wrote: | check this out...looks interesting. Although $8000 is a lot of money I assume it is a lot less then other M.O schools are charging.
http://www.wocy.org/home/faq |
Wow! Thanks for the link. It's a lot of money but regular schools in the area are nearly twice as much. It seems they keep costs down by requiring family volunteer involvement.
Here's another brand-new low-cost option in education, also in NJ: http://www.pclcnj.com/
(I'm not affiliated - just happen to have heard about it).
In both cases, costs are contained by making radical changes to the school structure.
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Mirabelle
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Thu, May 26 2011, 4:54 pm
| amother wrote: | | Raisin wrote: | check this out...looks interesting. Although $8000 is a lot of money I assume it is a lot less then other M.O schools are charging.
http://www.wocy.org/home/faq |
Wow! Thanks for the link. It's a lot of money but regular schools in the area are nearly twice as much. It seems they keep costs down by requiring family volunteer involvement.
Here's another brand-new low-cost option in education, also in NJ: http://www.pclcnj.com/
(I'm not affiliated - just happen to have heard about it).
In both cases, costs are contained by making radical changes to the school structure. |
Yes, 8k per year is waaay cheap for that area!
I'm so glad that people are starting to put their heads together to deal with crazy tuition prices!
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Barbara
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Thu, May 26 2011, 5:05 pm
| amother wrote: | | Hashem_Yaazor wrote: | And I can refute that from school administrators, tuition committees, principals, board members, fundraisers, etc from schools all over the country.
Every. Single. One has told me or written publicly (and mind you, I have not spoken to a member of every school to say this is a 100% true -- but it seems to be quite the majority) that the cost of tuition is enough (or not) for ONE child. Tuition is not raised to count for students on scholarship. You're not paying extra for people who get breaks.
You can feel upset that you're working harder and paying more, but you should not feel upset (unless the school you send to is vastly different than the schools I have heard from) that you're also paying for others' kids. |
I'd like to know how many different schools you surveyed and what types they were (I.e., MO day schools, chasidush yeshivos, etc.)
This makes absolutely no sense at all. If it costs $10K to educate a child, why set full tuition lower than that? |
Because the question isn't how much it costs to educate a given child. Its how much it costs to run the school as a whole. (The incremental cost of educating one child is very low. The teachers, building, etc are already in place. That's not the issue. Its the per capita share of the entire cost that matters.) As I said, that sum comes from a number of sources, all of which have to add up to the cost of running the school.
Using round numbers, let's say it costs $20,000,000 to run a school with 1000 children. So the cost of educating each child is $20,000. The school has endowments and raises $6,000,000, and received another $4,000,000 in government aid. Now the student body has to fund the remaining $10,000,000. At full tuition, that's $10,000 per student. But since not everyone pays full tuition, the actual tuition is set at $13,000.
Now, some fast-talking administrator can tell you that you're not funding the kids who can't pay, because the $13,000 you pay doesn't even pay your child's full share of the overall expense, had there been no outside funding. But that's not looking at the whole picture. Because your $13,000 is picking up your child's share of the costs not funded by non-tuition dollars ($10,000), but ANOTHER piece of that which another family is not paying. There's no way around this.
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Peanut2
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Thu, May 26 2011, 6:28 pm
| Barbara wrote: | | amother wrote: | | Hashem_Yaazor wrote: | And I can refute that from school administrators, tuition committees, principals, board members, fundraisers, etc from schools all over the country.
Every. Single. One has told me or written publicly (and mind you, I have not spoken to a member of every school to say this is a 100% true -- but it seems to be quite the majority) that the cost of tuition is enough (or not) for ONE child. Tuition is not raised to count for students on scholarship. You're not paying extra for people who get breaks.
You can feel upset that you're working harder and paying more, but you should not feel upset (unless the school you send to is vastly different than the schools I have heard from) that you're also paying for others' kids. |
I'd like to know how many different schools you surveyed and what types they were (I.e., MO day schools, chasidush yeshivos, etc.)
This makes absolutely no sense at all. If it costs $10K to educate a child, why set full tuition lower than that? |
Because the question isn't how much it costs to educate a given child. Its how much it costs to run the school as a whole. (The incremental cost of educating one child is very low. The teachers, building, etc are already in place. That's not the issue. Its the per capita share of the entire cost that matters.) As I said, that sum comes from a number of sources, all of which have to add up to the cost of running the school.
Using round numbers, let's say it costs $20,000,000 to run a school with 1000 children. So the cost of educating each child is $20,000. The school has endowments and raises $6,000,000, and received another $4,000,000 in government aid. Now the student body has to fund the remaining $10,000,000. At full tuition, that's $10,000 per student. But since not everyone pays full tuition, the actual tuition is set at $13,000.
Now, some fast-talking administrator can tell you that you're not funding the kids who can't pay, because the $13,000 you pay doesn't even pay your child's full share of the overall expense, had there been no outside funding. But that's not looking at the whole picture. Because your $13,000 is picking up your child's share of the costs not funded by non-tuition dollars ($10,000), but ANOTHER piece of that which another family is not paying. There's no way around this. |
Yeah, except when people donate specifically to scholarship funds. Fundraising is sometimes in general for the school, but there are specific funds, projects, and ways to donate.
But yeah, I see what you're saying.
Everyone is getting so upset at funding other people, but I don't understand why that isn't an important value. The teachers that educate your children, for example, don't make enough to afford day school for their own kids (even if they only have 2 or 3.)
Sometimes social workers marry teachers. Maybe that social worker assumed she would marry a doctor or lawyer, but ended up falling for a guy whose passionate about something else?
Do we not want any teachers or social workers in the Jewish community? What about university professors, scientists, and researchers, who don't make as much as lawyers or business people? What about all not-insanely high paying professions? Look at the average income people have. A couple who makes $65K is doing okay, but are poor by Jewish standards and tuition standards. That's crazy.
What about people who lost their jobs? What about someone who does work as a secretary? Her kids shouldn't get a Jewish education? What happens if that secretary decides that it would be a good idea to go to grad school, or get some other degree or experience? How is she to pay tuition?
Everyone is acting as though people are deciding to rely on other people for tuition. Well, I hear the part about kollel - but if you send to a school with "kollel discounts" it's because those are the values of the school. Outside of the kollel world, it should be our value to help others who have less.
And especially in MO schools, we should support people making career choices that are based on what they are good at and where they believe they can make a contribution. We need good educators, good historians, good people doing what they're good at, not just dentists.
The problem is that no one trusts that the financial aid system is fair, that the costs are crazy, and that as the costs get higher, it becomes much harder for anyone making less than 6 figures to even dream of being able to pay full tuition. And people who make 6 figures but on the "lower end" and pay full tuition get a huge chunk of their money taken away by tuition, and then feel insanely resentful because they have to scrimp as well (though not as much as families who are legitimately on financial aid.) So the only people who feel properly middle class are actually very wealthy, really.
But that shouldn't change our values. Which is that as a community we want to educate children in a Jewish setting, and that we do think that we are all responsible (arevim) for each other and for making sure our communities are filled with people who have food, housing, clothing, and a Jewish education.
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Hashem_Yaazor
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Thu, May 26 2011, 8:43 pm
| amother wrote: | | Hashem_Yaazor wrote: | And I can refute that from school administrators, tuition committees, principals, board members, fundraisers, etc from schools all over the country.
Every. Single. One has told me or written publicly (and mind you, I have not spoken to a member of every school to say this is a 100% true -- but it seems to be quite the majority) that the cost of tuition is enough (or not) for ONE child. Tuition is not raised to count for students on scholarship. You're not paying extra for people who get breaks.
You can feel upset that you're working harder and paying more, but you should not feel upset (unless the school you send to is vastly different than the schools I have heard from) that you're also paying for others' kids. |
I'd like to know how many different schools you surveyed and what types they were (I.e., MO day schools, chasidush yeshivos, etc.)
This makes absolutely no sense at all. If it costs $10K to educate a child, why set full tuition lower than that? | I made up the $10K quote.
I have heard this fact (that tuition for one student does not compensate for more than that one child, and usually not even for that one) from at least 10 schools nation-wide. Florida and other Southern states, West, East coast, midwest...
Community day schools and bais yaakovs and yeshivos.
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Hashem_Yaazor
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Thu, May 26 2011, 8:46 pm
| farm wrote: | | Hashem_Yaazor wrote: | And I can refute that from school administrators, tuition committees, principals, board members, fundraisers, etc from schools all over the country.
Every. Single. One has told me or written publicly (and mind you, I have not spoken to a member of every school to say this is a 100% true -- but it seems to be quite the majority) that the cost of tuition is enough (or not) for ONE child. Tuition is not raised to count for students on scholarship. You're not paying extra for people who get breaks.
You can feel upset that you're working harder and paying more, but you should not feel upset (unless the school you send to is vastly different than the schools I have heard from) that you're also paying for others' kids. |
When I was younger, my parents asked how much of the tuition is for their child and how much covers others so that they can use maaser for that part. The school said 100% of the requested tuition is used for your child. Now my child is going to the same school. This year the tuition bill is lower than last year, with a request for a $2,500 tax deductable donation for the scholarship fund. Suddenly the 100% tuition that only covered my child last year includes a donation to the scholarship fund this year (not that I'm complaining- thanks yeshiva for instituting that change and allowing us to get a tax deduction for part of the tuition!) . So just to spell it out so that my point is crystal clear: tuition raised definitely accounts for students on scholarship. You are definitely paying extra for people who get breaks. | That does not prove anything. Here they are trying to find a way for people to pay more and lessen the tuition breaks; if it's tax-deductible, that extra money can be paid without as much reservation, so now they're fundraising to make up the deficit for all children, but come out ahead because all the parents are paying into this scholarship fund and they're getting more money overall from the parents.
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saw50st8
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Thu, May 26 2011, 8:51 pm
| Hashem_Yaazor wrote: | And I can refute that from school administrators, tuition committees, principals, board members, fundraisers, etc from schools all over the country.
Every. Single. One has told me or written publicly (and mind you, I have not spoken to a member of every school to say this is a 100% true -- but it seems to be quite the majority) that the cost of tuition is enough (or not) for ONE child. Tuition is not raised to count for students on scholarship. You're not paying extra for people who get breaks.
You can feel upset that you're working harder and paying more, but you should not feel upset (unless the school you send to is vastly different than the schools I have heard from) that you're also paying for others' kids. |
HY, read this:
http://lookstein.org/lookjed/r.....17851
Rabbi Teitz specifies that yearly increases automatically account for scholarship students.
| Quote: | Dividing that out over the 900 students means raising tuition by $360
per student. Factor in scholarships (and 20% scholarship is also not
unheard of) and the real increase has to approach $450 per student. |
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saw50st8
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Thu, May 26 2011, 9:06 pm
| Peanut2 wrote: |
Yeah, except when people donate specifically to scholarship funds. Fundraising is sometimes in general for the school, but there are specific funds, projects, and ways to donate.
But yeah, I see what you're saying.
Everyone is getting so upset at funding other people, but I don't understand why that isn't an important value. The teachers that educate your children, for example, don't make enough to afford day school for their own kids (even if they only have 2 or 3.)
Sometimes social workers marry teachers. Maybe that social worker assumed she would marry a doctor or lawyer, but ended up falling for a guy whose passionate about something else?
Do we not want any teachers or social workers in the Jewish community? What about university professors, scientists, and researchers, who don't make as much as lawyers or business people? What about all not-insanely high paying professions? Look at the average income people have. A couple who makes $65K is doing okay, but are poor by Jewish standards and tuition standards. That's crazy.
What about people who lost their jobs? What about someone who does work as a secretary? Her kids shouldn't get a Jewish education? What happens if that secretary decides that it would be a good idea to go to grad school, or get some other degree or experience? How is she to pay tuition?
Everyone is acting as though people are deciding to rely on other people for tuition. Well, I hear the part about kollel - but if you send to a school with "kollel discounts" it's because those are the values of the school. Outside of the kollel world, it should be our value to help others who have less.
And especially in MO schools, we should support people making career choices that are based on what they are good at and where they believe they can make a contribution. We need good educators, good historians, good people doing what they're good at, not just dentists.
The problem is that no one trusts that the financial aid system is fair, that the costs are crazy, and that as the costs get higher, it becomes much harder for anyone making less than 6 figures to even dream of being able to pay full tuition. And people who make 6 figures but on the "lower end" and pay full tuition get a huge chunk of their money taken away by tuition, and then feel insanely resentful because they have to scrimp as well (though not as much as families who are legitimately on financial aid.) So the only people who feel properly middle class are actually very wealthy, really.
But that shouldn't change our values. Which is that as a community we want to educate children in a Jewish setting, and that we do think that we are all responsible (arevim) for each other and for making sure our communities are filled with people who have food, housing, clothing, and a Jewish education. |
Its not just a matter of the social worker and teacher who got married. Its about people perpetually making choices that put them in a situation where they cannot afford tuition. If you are a teacher married to a social worker, realize from the start of your marriage that your limited funds means owning a home (especially if we are talking northern NJ where I live) will be impossible and you will have to live in a tiny rental to even come close to paying for tuition. Its about saving money BEFORE you have kids and scrimping and saving and not living the life everyone else does.
So it means driving ten year old cars, instead of newer leases. It means not going on vacation. It means eating cheaper meals. It means not having cleaning help even though at the end of the day you are exhausted. It means having pre-paid phones that are used in emergencies only rather than a cell phone plan.
But people (in general) aren't doing that. They buy a house before tuition obligations because once you have your mortgage the school doesn't make you sell. They lease cars and then add that to their monthly obligations. They get used to cleaning help in the early years and can't give it up when they have a few kids. They become SAHMs and buy jewelry etc etc etc.
Now of course this isn't everyone and not everything applies. But looking around, there is a LOT of abuse, subtle and overt.
I have no problem helping out those who end up in a situation temporarily. Like job loss, illness in the family etc. But I have a problem with people who choose lifestyles that won't allow them to pay their way.
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Hashem_Yaazor
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Thu, May 26 2011, 9:30 pm
| saw50st8 wrote: | | Hashem_Yaazor wrote: | And I can refute that from school administrators, tuition committees, principals, board members, fundraisers, etc from schools all over the country.
Every. Single. One has told me or written publicly (and mind you, I have not spoken to a member of every school to say this is a 100% true -- but it seems to be quite the majority) that the cost of tuition is enough (or not) for ONE child. Tuition is not raised to count for students on scholarship. You're not paying extra for people who get breaks.
You can feel upset that you're working harder and paying more, but you should not feel upset (unless the school you send to is vastly different than the schools I have heard from) that you're also paying for others' kids. |
HY, read this:
http://lookstein.org/lookjed/r.....17851
Rabbi Teitz specifies that yearly increases automatically account for scholarship students.
| Quote: | Dividing that out over the 900 students means raising tuition by $360
per student. Factor in scholarships (and 20% scholarship is also not
unheard of) and the real increase has to approach $450 per student. | |
I didn't see in that post where he wrote that's what they did, but rather if they relied on tuition, that's what they would have to do.
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Hashem_Yaazor
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Thu, May 26 2011, 9:32 pm
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JFTR, you do realize, I hope, that going on BC for financial planning reasons is not clear cut halachically. And I certainly hope you don't look down at those who follow their rabbonim that it's better not to go on BC lest you can't pay full tuition down the line vs deciding that "morally" (an arbitrary secular concept not based on Torah values) one should choose to refrain from having kids for a while in order to afford full tuition.
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saw50st8
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Thu, May 26 2011, 10:12 pm
HY, those are numbers from JEC - a large MO school in NJ. That is how they do it. Its K-12.
I'm not saying that people should go on BC, but there are alternatives even if they aren't as comfortable.
You can't expect to earn a little and get the same lifestyle and those earning a lot. We aren't talking about basic needs here.
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Hashem_Yaazor
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Thu, May 26 2011, 10:23 pm
I know Rabbi Teitz actually. But I'm not seeing how that is saying that they charge more tuition because of scholarships. He's going through various ways of trying to raise money and how it doesn't really work.
It could be that they do that -- and it's possible MO schools do work like this. But the community day schools, bais yaakovs, and yeshivos I know of don't do this.
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Barbara
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Fri, May 27 2011, 12:23 am
| Hashem_Yaazor wrote: | I know Rabbi Teitz actually. But I'm not seeing how that is saying that they charge more tuition because of scholarships. He's going through various ways of trying to raise money and how it doesn't really work.
It could be that they do that -- and it's possible MO schools do work like this. But the community day schools, bais yaakovs, and yeshivos I know of don't do this. |
So, please share where they get the money? Read my post above. If it costs $2000 to run the school, and the school receives government support and raises a total of $1000, the rest of the money has to come from the students. If all 1000 students pay $1, they're fine. But if 500 can't pay that $1, then someone has to pay it. That's the other students. Unless BY schools and yeshivas are printing money.
I'm not talking about whether or not its a good thing to have those who can pay fund those who can't. I'm saying an inescapable truth.
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saw50st8
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Fri, May 27 2011, 7:59 am
| Hashem_Yaazor wrote: | I know Rabbi Teitz actually. But I'm not seeing how that is saying that they charge more tuition because of scholarships. He's going through various ways of trying to raise money and how it doesn't really work.
It could be that they do that -- and it's possible MO schools do work like this. But the community day schools, bais yaakovs, and yeshivos I know of don't do this. |
He says if the yearly increases are supposed to be $360, they factor in that scholarship families will not be paying the increase and charge $450 instead. That's $90 per non-scholarship child attributed directly to scholarship students.
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Hashem_Yaazor
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Fri, May 27 2011, 8:49 am
He didn't say they raised the price like that; he was going through various methods of trying to increase money and saying why they don't work.
Either way, my husband who has been involved with fundraising in schools tells me I won't be able to convince anyone, so I might as well give it up...all I can tell you is I know this is the truth of a large majority of schools. All of them? I can't tell you. But I know it as fact, not as assumption.
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