Tuition Dilemma | Imamother

farm

Wed, May 25 2011, 8:44 am

rydys wrote:

I have no idea how much it costs per child to run a school, but other involved expenses could include benefits, vacation coverage, extra curricular activities, etc.

rydys wrote:

I'm curious for a reason. I pay $4000 a year for my kids. With 30 girls in the class, that is $120,000 per year (assuming everyone pays full tuition, I have never asked for a discount). This seems to me like plenty of money.

The school in my neighborhood says about 40% of families pay full tuition, and that number is falsely high because in general, the families with multiple children in the school are the ones who don't pay full tuition.

rydys wrote:

I know not everyone pays in full, but assuming they did, shouldn't that be enough? And if you can't afford to pay in full, would it not be fair to expect to contribute some other way, like supervising lunch or stuffing envelopes or something which would lower the other costs in the classroom?

Wouldn't that be nice? I wish the school would enforce a system where parents who accept tuition deductions provide a service to the school. Anything from selling raffle tickets instead of a telemarket company to serving hot lunch instead of hired kitchen staff.

amother

Wed, May 25 2011, 10:04 am

Barbara wrote:

rydys wrote:

I'm curious. Does anyone know how much it really costs per child to run a school?

Thinking about elementary school--If the hebrew and english teachers are each paid $30,000 for the year, that I $60,000. What other expenses are involved? Could it really cost more than $120,000 to run a classroom?

I'm curious for a reason. I pay $4000 a year for my kids. With 30 girls in the class, that is $120,000 per year (assuming everyone pays full tuition, I have never asked for a discount). This seems to me like plenty of money.

I know not everyone pays in full, but assuming they did, shouldn't that be enough? And if you can't afford to pay in full, would it not be fair to expect to contribute some other way, like supervising lunch or stuffing envelopes or something which would lower the other costs in the classroom?

I can only speak to our schools.

In the lower grades, there are always 2 teachers, lead and assistant. So for 20 kids (our class size; do you really have more kids in a class in private school than in public school?), that's 4 teachers. The lead teachers certainly make more than $30,000 per year. (College graduates with teaching degrees and some experience really accept $700 per week, assuming a 42 week year? The starting salary for a NYC public school teacher is about $45,000 per year; 5 years experience, even with just a BA, is over $50,000. How do schools that pay 1/2 that attract good teachers?)

Add benefits (health insurance) and payroll taxes, which runs the per employee cost up to 1.25 to 1.4 times the actual salary. IOW, even if you have 2 teachers making $30,000 each, as you claim, its still costing the school $85,000 to pay them.

Then there are support staff. Substitute teachers (and you tend to need a lot in frum schools, where there is frequent maternity leave). Resource room teachers. Enrichment teachers. Administrative and other support staff. Security. Lunchroom personnel. Janitorial staff. Book keeper, accountant, and other office staff. Gym, art, music, other specialties.

Cost of the building. Heat and a/c. Lunch (if provided). Repairs. Electricity. Desks and chairs. Insurance. Maintaining the grounds and playground.

Books. Smartboards or blackboards. Lots and lots and lots of paper. Postage, unless your school is paper-free.

I'm sure I've missed a lot of things.

So schools have a LOT of expenses beyond salary.

not every school has 4 teachers (including assistants for 20 kids)-and this is usually only in first and maybe second grade that they have one teacher and one (or two assistants) and there were more thatn 20 kids in the class.

also the government provides books and equipment to the school for every student (even for private schools)

aidelmaidel

Wed, May 25 2011, 10:54 am

Here's a link to part of what is used in baltimore: http://www.talmudicalacademy.o.....d.pdf

amother

Wed, May 25 2011, 11:00 am

I think it's great that they ask such specific questions. My kids' school recently sent out an anonymous questionnaire trying to figure out how families prioritize tuition. We're OOT and I think it must be hard to really push families to give more when the communtiy overall is not a wealthy one and with lack of multiple schools, you can't just turn away families who don't want to pay full tuition. Enrollment is super low anyhow - a dozen or less kids per grade and the teacher needs to get paid whether she teaches 2 kids or 12.

aidelmaidel

Wed, May 25 2011, 11:08 am

I believe they also use this company: http://www.factsmgt.com/

chocolate moose

Wed, May 25 2011, 11:10 am

I'm sorry; I don't disagree with any of you, but the facts remains that

1 - If you pay what they ask you to, you should be able to do what you want with the rest of your income

and

2 - Whatever you pay, even if it IS full tuition, someone is making up the difference. Tuuition doesn't cover all the expenses of running a school.

Barbara

Wed, May 25 2011, 11:21 am

amother wrote:

Barbara wrote:

rydys wrote:

The DOE provides *some* books for secular studies only. It does not provide any religious studies books at all. Nor does it provide substantial equipment, to the best of my knowledge.

My figures were based on 2 low-paid teachers with 30 kids per class. At $4000 per kid per year (we pay a lot more than that, but its what the person to whom I responded posited), its taking 21 kids of the class, paying full tuition, to come up with the $85,000 it costs to pay those two teachers.

Now, a full 25% of public school costs are non-salary related. So that's another 7 students in the class of 30. (And I suspect that private school has higher costs in this category.)

That leaves 2 students of each class of 30 to pay for all salaries of administrative staff -- less than 1% of tuition.

Assuming no one receives scholarship money.

In 2007, NYC spent an average of over $13,500 per pupil. Apparently, the state with the LOWEST cost per pupil is Utah, which spent $5257 per student -- 25% MORE than the tuition mentioned.

Do you really think that a private school spending $4000 per pupil is overspending, or that a significant percent of that sum is going to scholarships?

Peanut2

Wed, May 25 2011, 2:30 pm

I think no one here has any idea how much it costs to run a school.
Are the schools not sharing the info? Is no one on the board? Or are people just not paying attention and enjoy complaining?

The cost of hiring a person involves a lot more than just the salary they get. There is health insurance, life insurance, disability insurance. A person who gets paid $30,000 actually costs her employer a lot more. The salary is just part of it.

The building itself costs money. Electricity, water, outdoor maintenance, cleaning staff. Furniture, materials, computers, phones, internet. Things like chairs and desks and painting the walls.

In many states the gov't pays for nothing. THat means that books and materials are all paid by the school. Even if the gov't pays, do they pay for markers and paper and notebooks and all the other supplies? Art supplies? These things really add up. Just kodesh workbooks and textbooks and notebooks and binders and folders and stickers and cardboard... And nevermind smartboard and the like...

At least in the schools I'm familiar with there are Hebrew and kodesh teachers, general studies classroom teachers, and (even if only part time) art and gym and maybe music teachers. Each one of these costs more than their salary. Even if no benefits are offered (like medical insurance.)

There are all sorts of insurances for the building, students, staff, in case of fire or injury or anything else. There are administrators, who at the very least need to answer the phone, do fundraising, hire people, fire people, buy things for the school, find subs, organize events, take care of the building(s), deal with payments, taxes, contracts... and a whole bunch of other stuff I can't think of.

Class size, teacher qualifications, number of teachers and so on depend a lot on the school and community. But for many schools in order to compete with other Jewish schools, private schools, the local public schools, you need reasonable class sizes and art classes. And licensed qualified teachers. Private schools do often pay less than public (because they often take unlicensed and unqualified teachers, but even if they don't.) But they still need to be a bit competitive with the public school salaries (eg 90% of local salary for level of education and years of experience.)

And I'm sure there's plenty of stuff I'm leaving out...

Mama Bear

Wed, May 25 2011, 8:05 pm

comparatively...

In the satmar school system, let's say for a typical elementary class... there are 2 teachers per class: Kodesh studies and ENglish studies. I dont think these teachers make more than $8000/yr.... and classroom size is about 25-35 kids per class!...

Lunches are subsidized by the state lunch program....
Secular studies books provided by the state, Kodesh books the kids have to buy themselves...

High school students do have about 6 teachers a day (2 periods in the morning and 4 in the afternoon), but they do pay more tuition, and the teachers do earn more (I think $75 per period.)

Indeed, tuition is only about $200 per month, with big breaks for larger families.

Of course there are tons of other expenses like building maintenance, staff salaries for principals and secretaries and resource room teachers etc...

But think about it, the average Wmsbg family has about 8 children, and so $1600/month, plus annual transportation, building, and registration fees, is no small potatoes when the father might not earn a lot more than that per month and still has to pay rent, bills, clothing, marry off said 8 kids...

Still not a fraction of the tuition crisis that happens in non chasidish schools, I gotta admit.

MamaBear

Wed, May 25 2011, 8:12 pm

How many qualified teachers are willing to work for $8K a year?

paprika

Wed, May 25 2011, 8:15 pm

Quote:

That sounds very demeaning.

I volunteer for my kids school. I would stop doing it if it becomes a job for the people that don't pay full tuition.

paprika

Wed, May 25 2011, 8:17 pm

MamaBear wrote:

How many qualified teachers are willing to work for $8K a year?

Don't forget, it's a part time job.

Barbara

Wed, May 25 2011, 8:31 pm

paprika wrote:

MamaBear wrote:

How many qualified teachers are willing to work for $8K a year?

Don't forget, it's a part time job.

Even if you assume its 4 hours a day, 32 weeks a year, that's about $12 per hour. Annualized to a 52 week year, that's $152/ week.

Minimum wage in NY is $7.25 / hour. That will give you $142 / week for a 20 hour week.

Teaching is a minimum wage job?

A cashier at WalMart makes $7.34 an hour, $5/week less than a teacher at a 20 hour week?

Where are these schools finding qualified teachers?

Maya

Wed, May 25 2011, 8:35 pm

They take many of their own graduates who want to teach for the prestige associated with it rather than the paycheck. Also, those who don't want to work in an office setting right out of school, and are willing to forgo getting paid well.

Barbara

Wed, May 25 2011, 8:39 pm

Maya wrote:

Just curious if they require a BA or BS in that subject, or is any BA OK?

abby1776

Wed, May 25 2011, 9:00 pm

This goes back to the post about frequent flyer miles - you do not need 250,000 miles to get a ticket. My parents are going in October 2011 and got business class tickets for 115,000 miles round trip - but they have a stop over in Europe. You can get coach tickets for as little as 70,000 miles round trip - you just have to fly in off season - not for yom tovim or in the summer. November is a good time, as is February or March (if Pesach isnt early). One year my husband and I got business class tickets for 50,000 miles round trip each on Continental- but that was like five years ago and I havent seen a deal that good since.

Maya

Wed, May 25 2011, 9:09 pm

Barbara wrote:

Maya wrote:

Just curious if they require a BA or BS in that subject, or is any BA OK?

They don't require the teachers to have any degree at all. Most of them are straight out of high school.

sarahd

Thu, May 26 2011, 1:47 am

Peanut2 wrote:

Not in most BY schools. Where I worked, teachers did not get health or life insurance, and I doubt they get that in most other non-MO schools. Disability insurance is not expensive. Social Security is under 10%.

Everything else you wrote is more or less on target.

GreenEyes26

Thu, May 26 2011, 3:02 am

It's such a messed up system, and I don't know what a good solution is.

My DH's family is in chinuch, so I know very well the cost of running a school. And how teachers are often not paid on time, sometimes for months. And how little that pay is when it comes.

But I do see how much tuition is and it's crazy. And I don't think it's fair that the full tuition we will iy''H have to pay also includes supporting the families that don't want to work for themselves. It's NOT fair, and it's NOT right, that some families tuition - and of course, the families that work hard for themselves, and probably have less kids than your typical kollel family - is THOUSANDS of dollars more than the "heimish" 8+ kid/father in kollel/mother working as a secretary family. It's just not.

Do whatever you want with your own life, but don't expect me to pay for your kid's schooling.

saw50st8

Thu, May 26 2011, 3:52 am

Ah greeneyes, can I profess my undying love for you at the moment?