Shabbos Emergency situations (chas v'shalom)

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Forum -> Parenting our children

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amother

Sat, Jun 04 2011, 5:47 pm

What do you do if your child:

Knocks a permanent tooth out on Shabbos?

Has a cut that looks like it needs stitches if you don't want it to scar (even though it looks like the bleeding has stopped)?

I chose these 2 scenarios because they are not life-threatening, but I think some disfiguration could be prevented if acted on in a timely fashion (I.e., tooth might be saved, or wound might be closed with less scarring)

Isramom8

Sat, Jun 04 2011, 5:53 pm

DH walked to the hospital after a doctor told him that the extra time that would take would not make a difference in stitching our child's ankle. He wheeled the child in a carriage (exited the eruv). He did not use the phone, drive or sign papers. Only because it wasn't that big of an emergency, of course.

freidasima

Sat, Jun 04 2011, 6:54 pm

I would think that if it's a girl you don't think twice and take her to the hospital no matter what simply because of shidduch stuff later on. You don't want her to be scarred, it's a lot more important for girls future than for boys.

You also never know what will happen if a doctor doesn't see it, there could be a sudden hemmorhage from the mouth or from the cut, both might need a type of disinfecting that could only be done by a doctor, etc. With all the stuff going around everythign is a sakono, we just don't know enough to know what is and what isn't and for that we have doctors.

Sure, I can talk easy, my son in law is a doctor and we live walking distance from a major hospital, yeah a long walk but we have done it nonetheless. But in other cases, you have to take into consideration that you don't always know what really is going on and it might be really important for a doctor to see and treat.

Isramom8

Sat, Jun 04 2011, 7:01 pm

She covers her ankles, and we did get a doctor's opinion. But believe you me, DH got plenty criticized. He still thinks one has to think, and not act without even considering halacha.

freidasima

Sat, Jun 04 2011, 7:23 pm

That's because he's a man, G-d help him and men don't think right.
They think "logically" but logic doesn't always work, otherwise we would not have anyone overweight, anyone single not by choice etc.

So...I was taught that you learn the dinnim but then you go by your gut in most situations.

Here's one for you.
When I was newly married I got the measles. and I was sick at my parents as dh didn't have a clue after the first week what to do with me. My mother headed a ladies' group in Emunah in those days and she had to take a group away for shabbos and my father of course refused to go and "leave his little baby alone" (alone? I had a husband but fathers' are fathers and I was pretty young then..)

So my mother took the group to Zichron and I was with my father and husband.
On shabbos morning I start throwing up. Non stop. And my spots were big and my fever was up and I felt like hell. They tried to give me something to drink and every sip came up. Over and over and over. And these two men, two brilliant absolutely brilliant men with an IQ of something like 500 between them, just look at me and I say "call an ambulance"! as I realized that I needed a doctor. No "terem" in those days etc.

And they just look at me. And my husband says "it's shabbos". and I literally croak in between throwing up into a bucket (actually retching, there was nothing in me) "Call an ambulance" and then m yfather gets into the scene and looks at me and says "Freidasima are you sure you really need an ambulance" and I scream at the top of my lungs "GET ME AN AMBULANCE NOW!!!!!"""

They finally called Magen David Adom.
The doctor came, took one look at me and started giving me injections to keep me from throwing up. I threw up three times as he was trying to give me the injection.

And there they were - MEN - wringing their hands before that about picking up the telephone receiver together to dial so that it is divided and bishinui....while I am dying...which I almost did.

I learned something important there at age 21 or whatever. Never rely on men, the biggest most learned zaddikim - my father had yadin yadin for heaven's sake and my husband was on his way to becoming a talmid chochom - but between them they had the sechel of a bat at that moment...

So...let women make the decisions on shabbos about emergency situations, ok?

sarahd

Sat, Jun 04 2011, 7:57 pm

Did you know that you are not allowed to go to a rov on Shabbos and ask a shaila about a safek pikuach nefesh? You are required to do anything the person needs without hesitation.

If a person has an open wound on the face, it is a safek pikuach nefesh because an infection there could go to the brain. You go to the hospital.

If you are having stitches done, you can have a plastic surgeon do them even though he will make many more stitches than an emergency room guy.

I heard all the above at a lecture by Dr. Avraham Abraham, who based most of what he said on psakim by Rav S.Z. Auerbach.

Mimisinger

Sat, Jun 04 2011, 9:42 pm

We had something similar - I thought it wasn't as serious as it turned out to be. We had eaten lunch at someone's house who doesn't have kids and my toddler drank out of what looked like a bottle, but was the paraffin for lighting with. I didn't think it was a big deal, because it's wax right? Wrong.

We ended up walking around the neighborhood, trying to find doctors, but they weren't home, trying to find different rabbis, and ended up calling poison control. When I then had to walk back across town to the place we had lunch to find the exact type/brand and call them back!

So embarrassing and humbling, because here I was not thinking it was a big emergency.

I think there should definitely be shiurim by our Rabbeim on these types of shailos. In fact, I'm going to either email our Rav or have dh ask for one.

this is a real impt. thing for our community. If only to hear the Rabbi say - call hatzolah! Call poison control! Go to the ER! And how.

zaq

Sat, Jun 04 2011, 10:11 pm

Call 911 first, ask questions later is my motto. Be a tzaddik on your own cheshben but not on someone else's is my mother's. If my child is in pain, even if I don't think it's mamash life-threatening, you can bet your last cent that that kid is going to the ER and we're not waiting till motzoei shabbos. If I want to be a martyr and suffer the agonies of a broken limb or what have you till shabbos is out, fine, that's my decision. But there's no way I'm letting my child suffer, even if he says he wants to, and certainly not so that I can be a tzadekes on his suffering. If that philosophy means I'll roast in hell, so be it.

zaq

Sat, Jun 04 2011, 10:21 pm

If I were a child who had to sufffer a whole Shabbos or was scarred on her face because her parents refused to take her to the ER on Shabbos, I'd be OTD so fast your head would spin.

gp2.0

Sat, Jun 04 2011, 11:10 pm

freidasima wrote:

It is funny to me that you place blame for this sort of thing on the man, when in reality, it's a personality thing. And IME, women feel guilt far more often than men do.

I felt horribly guilty about going into the hospital on shabbos when it turned out to be a gallstone attack, so it wasn't life-threatening. Even though the hatzolah members did advise me to go in, and even though internal injuries, are, according to halacha as I learned it, classified as pikuach nefesh, I still felt guilty.

And I felt guilty, ridiculous as it seems, that I had a baby on Shabbos. Or actually, I had the baby ten minutes after the zman, which for some reason made me feel worse. Rolling Eyes

For months after I felt like the kedusha of shabbos was gone for me. (I was still very grateful to b'h have a healthy baby, no matter when she decided to arrive.)

So my DH, yes Friedasima, a MAN, went and found me a source that says that on Shabbos, when it's pikuach nefesh, when you're having a baby or anything else, you are an IDIOT if you aren't mechalel shabbos, and do whatever is necessary. It is very graphic in describing exactly what kind of idiot you are for worrying, and for trying to do things with shinui, etc.

I know OP wasn't talking about pikuach nefesh scenarios, but just wanted to relate that story.

BTW OP, there are scenarios in halacha for all types of things. I believe losing a tooth is considered an internal injury, and is therefore pikuach nefesh. Just FYI.

Isramom8

Sun, Jun 05 2011, 12:26 am

I just want to point out that in our case with the ankle that required stitching, that a neighbor-doctor saw immediately and said it could wait the extra little time walking would take, DH got to the hospital on foot in only like half an hour. And my child was screaming that no one should be mechalel Shabbos for her - although in a case of pikuach nefesh of course her request would have been ignored.

shanie5

Sun, Jun 05 2011, 1:41 am

When DS was three, he was running in circles when he hit the corner of a bookcase with his head. This was a Friday night, less than 10 minutes after shkiah. It was obviously not life threatening, but also fairly obvious that stitches were required. We have a Dr. in our community who is also a Rabbi. My children went to get him to come to the house. He took one look and said to have him stitched by a plastic surgeon on shabbos-so he wouldnt be scarred for life. The hospital is around the corner from my house, so BH we did not have to drive, but woud have if necessary.

As for MEN making decisions? When my DH's grandfather had trouble breathing in the middle of the (friday) night , my mil could not make herself call hatzolah. She woke up DH who called them-and he also ended up driving the ambulance as all the hatzolah men were working on his grandfather who had gone into cardiac arrest.

freidasima

Sun, Jun 05 2011, 3:01 am

What I wrote had nothing to do with guilt but with a woman saying "Do for me on shabbos" and men wringing their hands about whether to do it and how to do it.

Yes I seem to see it being a man's thing. When a man tells his wife "get me an ambulance" on shabbos I have NEVER heard of a wife asking "honey do you really think you need one?" while I have heard over and over about men asking their wives "honey do you really think you need one?"

So this isn't a scientific study but what I've seen among my friends and acquaintances over and over.

Guilt doesn't come into the equation but rather the question of how fast to listen to another person, the choleh, saying "do for me" on shabbos (which BTW is halochically totally permitted in any and all circumstances).

I wonder if those who felt guilty were BTs or frummer than befores..just asking...

Liba

Sun, Jun 05 2011, 3:14 am

I have a hugely hard time calling hatzalah ever. Usually we wend up going by ambulance from the kupah or terem. Shabbos is even harder. You end up a community wide spectacle of curiosity with a crowd of children and adults standing around to see what is happening.

Both of those cases should be addressed immediately, and I really hope I would, but I have pushed off worse until right after shabbos, not because of fear of being mechalel shabbos but hope that we could take care of it without an ER visit or hospitalization. I really hate the hospital. Sad

anonymrs

Sun, Jun 05 2011, 3:28 am

There is a book on this topic, I don't remember what its called but it's written by Rabbi Moshe Rothberg, I think his name is? Anyone know what I'm talking about?

yOungM0mmy

Sun, Jun 05 2011, 4:42 am

freidasima wrote:

Wondering if to call an ambulance may just be a man thing, shabbos or not. When I was in transition in labour (on a Thursday) and told my husband to call an ambulance cuz there was no way I was folding myself into a car, he was so unsure, he waited till my mother got to my house, and she called the ambulance Wink

Twice we have had to come BACK from the hospital on Shabbos (got there before), and both times my father, a dayan, said I can take a taxi. Once DS had blisters on his hand on a short erev shabbos, and by the time they had finished bandaging and giving meds and discharging, it was 15 minutes after shkia. DH had gone home once we knew DS was ok, to light Shabbat candles for me, and my father told me to take a taxi with DS, even though there was absolutely no pikuach nefesh to either of us (the walk would have taken almost 2 hours, but is doable). Another time, I had had surgery on Tuesday under my arms, and on Friday afternoon liquid started gushing out (sorry if TMI) of the incision. My father told us to take a taxi there, AND back (my DH as well), even though by that time I was ok, and DH was definitely fine (the walk is probably 2 hours, but is outside tchum).

Often, in our ignorance, we are even more strict than Torah demands or wants of us.

e1234

Sun, Jun 05 2011, 6:11 am

Everyone should learn the halachos.
If you shemiras shabbos khilchasah in english - it's very helpful .

For a while every shabbos dh was reading it after someone he knew had major convulsions as his mother was afraid to go to the ER on shabbos. You are obligated to be mechalel shabbos for pikuach nefesh.
If feels wrong (yes I did it - when dd was 6 weeks old and had fever and breathing trouble) but you are doing the wrong thing if you don't go when you should...

amother

Sun, Jun 05 2011, 4:41 pm

My son was staying with a friend over Shabbos and the two boys were wrestling before Shachris. My son broke his arm. Both his ulna and radius. One was at a 20 degree break and the other at 29 degrees. The doctor next door told them to take my son to the emergency room. The adults in charge decided that since it wasn't life threatening it could wait until after Shabbos. EVEN THOUGH THE EMERGENCY ROOM WAS WITHIN WALKING DISTANCE.

My son suffered permanent nerve damage and had to go through 3 separate procedures to reset the bones. He was in agony for months. It was 2 years before the orthopedist was satisfied that he had completely healed and cleared him to play sports.

happyone

Sun, Jun 05 2011, 6:46 pm

There's a book Emergency's in Halacha. It's a great book describing different medical situations and the halachic view on it.
By Rabbi Moshe Rotberg

http://search.aol.com/aol/imag.....s.com

zaq

Sun, Jun 05 2011, 7:03 pm

amother wrote:

The adults in charge were, I assume, your son's hosts? What utter chutzpah. A classic example of being a tzaddik on somebody else's cheshben. And on the cheshben of a child, no less. There's a special place in hell for such people.

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