Is it okay to confront the kid who's bullying my kid?

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life'sgreat

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 10:21 am

ora_43 wrote:

I agree with gryp.

Doing more to get the school involved could be so much better in the long run. Bullying this other child (which is what you'd be doing, intentionally or not) will just teach him that bullying does work and is a normal approach, and even if he does leave your child alone he'll just turn to a new victim. If the school can be convinced to be more active (have you tried threatening them with police involvement?) they might be able to put a stop to his behavior altogether.

Why is the parent telling the child to cease and desist any more bullying than the school doing so?

ora_43

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 10:22 am

life'sgreat wrote:

It isn't 'adult vs child'. It's a parent protecting their own child. I'm not sure what you think the adult would do, other than talk to the bully. He wouldn't bully said child, but talk to said child.

If it were just a question of talking, the first grader could do it. Obviously the point is that the person talking will be bigger and stronger and older than the bully, and will scare the bully (which OP specifically said would be part of the plan, frightening the bully with threats of police involvement).

ora_43

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 10:24 am

life'sgreat wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

Why is the parent telling the child to cease and desist any more bullying than the school doing so?

Because the school knows the kid and his situation and might be able to find a good way to deal with him, while the parent would just be saying "don't you dare touch my child or I'll call the police on you."

Also, teachers would be able to keep an eye on the kid in general and make sure he's not just picking on someone else, while the mother will only know if he's still picking on her child or not.

gryp

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 10:24 am

Unfortunately, I know very well what it's like to be the mother of a child who cannot stand up for himself. It doesn't matter. You can't let emotions get in the way with solving the issue properly.

Here's an idea to make things fair and square: How about if when you go down to talk to the child bully, at the same time the bully's mother comes to talk to your child one-on-one. How does that sound? Anybody want to volunteer for that?

I've actually solved quite a few bully problems with two of my sons in the past 4 or so years. Once I met the mother in school and told her what my son said her son was doing. Without a second, the mother told the son what he did wrong and why and made him apologize. Lucky, that was an easy one. More recently, I needed to have a meeting with the child and teacher because I wasn't getting through anywhere else. That was a tough situation but thank Hashem, resolved. We held our breaths for a long time. Another boy bullied my son for two years straight until suddenly he stopped. I don't know why, somehow he matured a bit and became a nicer kid.

And unfortunately, I have another one today. I almost kept my child home from school today but he promised me he'd speak to his teacher as soon as he saw him this morning.

life'sgreat

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 10:31 am

ora_43 wrote:

life'sgreat wrote:

Right. You're an authority. That still doesn't make it bullying. That makes you the parent of your child that needs to be protected. I didn't see the police involvement threat. I think warning a child not to lay hands on your child is something that every parent has a right to do.

gryp

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 10:31 am

life'sgreat wrote:

gryp wrote:

Quote:

Neither is a fourth grader bullying a first grader.

And from this we learn to become the bully ourselves?

It's the most helpless feeling in the world when your kid is being bullied and you know that you can stop it because of your size and age, but you still need to do it the right way. Even if you need to pull your kid out of school until it's taken care of. Be proactive, go down to school and raise a ruckus, but you can't confront a child one-on-one.

Talking to a child = bullying?

You stop it because of your understanding, and responsibility towards your own children. Not because of your size and age.

I see nothing wrong in confronting a child one on one to put a stop to them bullying your own child. And again, I'm not sure what you think this confrontation would look like. Telling a child sternly that they shouldn't DARE to ever touch your child again isn't confronting, or bullying. It's being an authority to a child that's lacking authority.

Life- perhaps YOU would have the seichel to get through to a bully child in a nice way. But when a parent is mad as heck at a kid for hurting his/her own, seichel doesn't usually have front seat.

I've heard from a teacher of young boys that mothers are always marching into the classroom to take care of the kid bullying hers. The teacher explains every time that it is inappropriate for an adult to confront a child one-on-one and he will take care of it. And he does. And the mothers always understand right away about the not level playing field and agree that it would be better left to proper authorities, ie. school (principal/teacher) and the bully's parents. The issue is solved much more satisfactorily that way. As well as permanently because the bully child isn't looking for another victim and isn't under the threat of another bully, ie. the adult.

gryp

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 10:34 am

ora_43 wrote:

life'sgreat wrote:

Exactly.
Even if the parent doesn't think she's threatening or scary, when an adult confronts a child it is automatically bullying. Just like you would think so if the other kid's mother confronted your child.

gryp

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 10:37 am

life'sgreat wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

life'sgreat wrote:

You aren't an authority over the other child and that gives you no right to discipline, threaten, or confront him, in any way.

I know people do it, I've wanted to do it myself many times, but if the adult thinks about it reasonably (ie., not emotionally), the conclusion should be that it is wrong. Better left up to those who have authority over the child.

ora_43

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 10:49 am

life'sgreat wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

life'sgreat wrote:

I basically agree with gryp's response.

In general I think it's fine if society as a whole watches out for kids, and everyone intervenes in everything. For instance, I'm sure there's a village somewhere where you would be 100% within your rights to not only confront someone else's child, but even slap them if you found it necessary. And that's OK, because that's the cultural rule, and someone else can do the same to your child if they're acting badly.

But if that's not the societal rule, and that's not what you want your kids to deal with, it's best not to allow yourself to behave that way either. I would prefer that other adults go through me or through my child's teachers if they have an issue with my child's behavior, and I do the same. If I heard that a parent had confronted my child and threatened to call the police on her, I would absolutely consider that bullying.

In cases where the other parents don't care, it's even more important to approach the bullying child with care. Kids like that are mean but usually very vulnerable.

Chayalle

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 10:53 am

I have to say I'm with LG on this.

I had this in my neighborhood where a boy hit my DD with a stick as she was coming of the school bus, more than once, just for the fun of it. Mother was at work, and father considered it adequate that he was resting in his home while his son terrorized the neighborhood because "boys will be boys".

I calmly walked up to him one day and told him that he must NEVER hurt Chayalle's DD again. If some boy off the street would come up and hurt my DD, I would call the police. And I don't see him as much different.

It stopped. At least with my DD anyway.

gryp

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 10:59 am

I will say that bullying in school and bullying out of school are two different scenarios. LG and Chayalle gave examples of out of school, my experiences have only been in school.
In school, you must go through the proper authority. Out of school, while just playing on the block or wherever, and bully's parents are absent in their parenting role, I would go up to the child bully, but treading very carefully. Ie., making sure I was not taking on the role of a bully myself. And it's a very thin line, but it's there, if you know what to say and how to say it.

amother

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 11:17 am

Ok, here's one from the bully's POV. When I was in second grade, the older kids would bully the younger kids on the bus on the way home. As horrified as I am to say this, even though I was part of the younger kids, I managed not to get bullied by joining in with the bullies and bossing around my own grade mates. Anyway, one afternoon, a feisty, Israeli mother stormed onto the bus and scared the bejeebers out of us. She yelled at us and threatened to call the school and get us kicked off the bus. I don't think the bullying stopped after that, but we definitely never picked on her daughters again!

Two points though, first of all she threatened us with things we had no doubt she would carry through with. Not that she would 'call the police'.
Second of all, I doubt this would make a difference to a boy bully, but it really made a difference to us brats that this mother was dressed well and looked put together. If she had stormed onto the bus in a ratty housecoat and slippers, it would have just given us more fodder to torment her daughters about.

As a side note, I now teach and you can be sure that I have zero tolerance for bullying in any shape or form. I know how devastating bullying is, both for the victim and for the bully.

fortunate123

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 12:20 pm

As someone who had a horrible bullying experience as a girl, I can't begin to describe what it does to a person's psyche. What is going back and forth in this conversation really is skirting the issue. The issue is that this is a life and death situation. It's not a joke. Just look at the news. Teenagers, even preteenagers, as young as 8 and 9 years old (!) are committing suicide because of bullying. This is means that a child bullying your child is in fact the equivalent of coming at your child with a gun or knife. Gryp, and other posters who call parental intervention "adult bullying", I want you to ask yourself what you would do if you were washing dishes one day and happened to look at your window to see a child running towards your child with a knife. You wouldn't wait until the school decided to call a "Knife Awareness Week" or wait for the principal to call you back and tell him you think your child being knifed is making you uncomfortable, and see what his next strategy is. You would drop the dish you are holding, dash out of your kitchen, run to pull your child to safety, and INTERVENE. I think you would do the same if you saw some kids in a back alley playing with firecrackers, even if none of them were your kids. An adult telling children to refrain from reckless and dangerous behavior is an adult who really cares and wants to solve the problem. This is called being responsible. This is called what the Torah says "In a place where there is no man, try to be a man".

The OP stated clearly that there is no adequate adult intervention taking place. The bully's parents are refusing to take responsibility, and the school is either not capable or not interested in solving the problem, hence the "recurring problem" she describes. Insisting on intervention from the school exclusively, is dangerous and futile. Dangerous, because the amount of time for the problem to actually be solved in these cases can stretch for months and years. In the interim, the child can be damaged forever and possibly become suicidal at a later point in life. Futile, because it is not just a school that is raising your child. It is a family, a neighborhood, a community, a camp....wherever your child may be, the adults in the vicinity, and of course primarily you, the parents, will have to step up to the plate and be the ones ensuring your child is safe. You can't rely on a school administration or camp director or any other supervising adults for that matter to guarantee that your child is safe at all times. This is why switching schools isn't going to make the problem go away. What will happen when there are kids who are bullying your child who aren't even in your child's school, but happen to be in the neighborhood? What do you do then?

The above being said, this does NOT mean a green light to intervene inappropriately. As an adult, you need to model appropriate language and behaviour. Your words and your actions need to be respectful but firm. Gentle but authoritative. It's a fine balance, but it can and should be done. The main thing is not to storm over to the child in anger, but to speak to the bully in a calm and mature manner.

This may not seem like a bullying incident, but to me - it was enough to be "sowing the seeds", and this is how I intervened. I was at my in-laws and BH my husband has a large family with lots of married siblings with kids. One of his sister's daughters happens to be the 'manipulative type'. She had a doll and she let everyone play with it including my daughters, but deliberately excluded my third daughter. She insisted that because it was her doll, she could decide who could and who couldn't play with it, and decided to exclude my third daughter from having a turn - not for any reason and not because of a fight, but because she was picking on her and wanted to make her feel left out. I had a hunch this was going on, because of some of the things my third daughter had been telling me, but when I saw it happen in front of me and saw how the girl's mother didn't seem to care at all, I spoke to the girl myself. Very gently, and in a non-threatening way. But with clear authority, explaining why it was not ok. The obnoxious behaviour stopped immediately.

Mystery Woman

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 12:26 pm

fortunate123 wrote:

VERY well put!

Letting the school handle it sounds very nice...in theory. But when every day that the bullying continues is causing serious damage to your child, you just want to stop it immediately and not wait around for whatever the school is trying to do to work.

motherinisrael

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 1:00 pm

I have a large family and now I am a grandmother,so I have seen this problem over the years. I suggest that you find an older kid to confront the bully. An older brother would be ideal. He should go over and threaten the kid. An older kid can say threatening things that a parent would not be at liberty to say.A couple of years ago we got our 14 year old to do this. He only went over to the kid once, and the problem stopped immediately. As a matter of fact, the kid made an about face and wanted to be our younger son's friend! By the way, it wasn't easy to convince my older son to do this as he is a very gentle kid. But we told him that doing this was the only solution.

gryp

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 1:02 pm

Speaking for myself, as soon as my child is being bothered by another, I know about it. If it happens a few more times, that's when my red flags go up and I start doing something about it. At this point, it is not comparable to a boy chasing mine with a knife. While being bullied for years is dreadful and often the cause of suicide, as was mentioned, let's not lump all instances of bullying together in the extreme. That just shows that you are reacting emotionally and seichel has taken a back seat. Not all bullies are alike especially if the bully is a young child, and often what is effective for one may not be for another. In school, you let the people in charge of dealing with the child, deal with him. If they aren't doing it to your satisfaction, you still have many cards to play, obviously don't just sit there and say, well, I tried. I only know about my kids' school but if there are frum schools out there who brush off bullying, it's time for the parent body to stand up and change that. Real change would mean the bully isn't bullying anymore at all, not that he's found a different victim, encouraged by an adult who threatened him over his last one.

If you're satisfied sending to a school where the teacher doesn't care about the students' safety or social dynamics, the principal is too "busy" to do anything effective, and the rule of the playground is "survival of the fittest," then sure, join the wild and confront children. But to me and most people I've spoken to about this, that isn't civilized behavior.

Out of school is a different issue, like I said. Although schools would love to extend their authority 24 hours over their students, their responsibility ends when the last bell rings. I would walk up to a child bully in order to protect my own child but being careful with how and what I do, and I'd have on hand some other ideas for the bully to spend his time and get rid of that label. Ideally I'd ask a policeman to talk to him but I know that where I live I might as well ask for a treasure chest under my oven.

Would I stop kids playing in a back alley with firecrackers? Probably not. The last time I stopped 10 year olds with firecrackers was when they were doing it 3 inches from my window. Otherwise, when I was in Israel I tried to stop kids twice from playing with matches- once in my building's elevator and the other time they were throwing lit matches into a full dumpster that was up against a side of a building. Both times they laughed me off. So no, I will usually not intervene unless I am sure they'll hear me.

ora_43

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 2:07 pm

Even if you want to say that any type of bullying = chasing someone with a knife, I think that only strengthens the argument that the parent shouldn't just approach the child herself.

If someone were trying to attack your child with a knife, would you just go out and say, "Get out of here or I'll call the cops," then go back in your house and do nothing more, leaving the knife-wielding attacker to attack your child the next day, or someone else's child? Of course not, you'd make sure the authorities were involved. (And if you were smart, you wouldn't confront the attacker at all, just get your own child to safety and let someone else handle the guy with the knife.)

Also here. If you really think bullying is an immediate life and death threat, you should be the last to suggest that a parent take care of her own child in the short term without doing a thing to deal with the greater problem of 1. a child who is a bully and 2. a school that's not doing enough to handle the problem. A parent who did that wouldn't even be protecting their own child, since without adequate and ongoing intervention there's nothing to prevent the bully from starting up again when the parent isn't looking, or from getting someone else to do their dirty work for them.

Mystery Woman

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 2:20 pm

ora_43 wrote:

(And if you were smart, you wouldn't confront the attacker at all, just get your own child to safety and let someone else handle the guy with the knife.)

Get your own child to safety...that's the key. First, you protect your kid, whatever it takes. Even if that means taking matters into your own hands. Then, of course involve the authorities.

ora_43

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 2:26 pm

Also, I agree with gryp about the difference between bullying and and out of school. If I see a child hurting my child, then of course I'll say something. Then again I'm Israeli, and I also don't mind if someone does the same with my child.

But if I hear about something happening in school, then IMHO the place to deal with that is in school. The people who are actually witness to the incident and in a position to deal with it on an ongoing basis are the ones who should be most involved.

I think I'm just picturing a different outcome than most amothers. If I imagine a situation where parents would all deal with reports of bullying themselves, I don't picture bullies being dealt with in an appropriate manner. I imagine that the most vocal parents would be the problematic parents - probably the parents of the bullies themselves - who would go around threatening any child their child accuses of anything.

I also think that very few parents of bullied children would be able to confront effectively; most would either unintentionally take an overly harsh approach and end up bullying themselves, or would unintentionally spur the bully on (if a parent confronted bullies in high school, for example, I can only imagine how much more bullying their child would take as a result).

Maybe OP is genuinely 100% sure that the bully is 100% at fault and would deal with it in an appropriate and mature way, but as a general rule, because most parents wouldn't be sure or wouldn't deal with it appropriately, I think it's best to maintain a rule of going through school channels.

ora_43

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 2:28 pm

Mystery Woman wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

(And if you were smart, you wouldn't confront the attacker at all, just get your own child to safety and let someone else handle the guy with the knife.)

Get your own child to safety...that's the key. First, you protect your kid, whatever it takes. Even if that means taking matters into your own hands. Then, of course involve the authorities.

And who says that what you're doing is going to work? "Getting your child to safety" if they're threatened by an attacker would be removing them from the situation; speaking to an attacker you don't know and then sending your kid back in to deal with them the next day, without the involvement of the adults who will actually be there supervising your child, could be making your child less safe not more.

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