Is it okay to confront the kid who's bullying my kid?

gryp

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 4:38 pm

Mystery Woman wrote:

gryp wrote:

Mystery Woman wrote:

gryp wrote:

AG- I bet there could be a couple hundred mothers writing the same post you just did. But again, that's emotion, not reason. Reason would mean that you'd be able to answer your own posts from what I've written so far on this thread.

I think there's plenty of reason mixed in there with the emotion. My kid is being hurt and I'm going to do whatever it takes to stop it. Perfectly reasonable.

That's all emotion. Okay, maybe 99.999 since yes, it's reasonable to protect your child.
Reason would be the mature response that will solve the problem effectively.

Yes...reason would be the mature response. The question here is what would be considered a mature response, and that's where we disagree.

Mature, by definition, wouldn't be what the bully is doing.

MuppetLover

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 4:48 pm

I didnt read the whole post.
BUT not only is it ok, I would go to the parents and loose it with them. I would NOT be calm under means. And if they dont listen, I would embrass the h*ll out of that kid every single day of his/her life until he/she apoligizes to my kid. I have a zero b/s policy when it comes to this, and I really could care less about the "mindset" of a bully.

And if chas vshalom it was my kid who was the bully, I would WANT my kid to be taught a lesson if I myself couldnt instill the lesson of be nice to others in my child.

MuppetLover

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 4:55 pm

Btw, Im not speaking from emoition, im speaking from fact.
Last year ont he school bus my son was 5 and two ten year olds picked on him, and the moniter did nothing. One of them happened to be the principals son who told me I couldnt do anything to him bc he was the principals son. I called the parents. The principal made her son come to my house with a bag of nosh and apologize. The other kids mother told me "My kid has depression, he was following th eother boy, nothing I can really do" My husband went to shul that night and told the kids father you have two choices, get your kid to leave my kid alone, or I will do it for you.

Shabbos in shul I saw the 2nd boy eyeying my son. I went over to him, took him by the collar in front of his friends and told him "YOU DONT WANT TO DO THAT OR IM GOING MAKE YOUR LIFE MISERABLE FOREVER" The kid pished in his pants in front of friends. Never bothered my son or another little kid again. The mother called me to and really tryed to defend her son until I said "I dont deal with terrorists or the mother of terrorists. You cant parent properly, someone else is going to have to teach your kid a lesson."

Bottom line: DONT STAND FOR IT, NIP IT IN THE BUD ANY WAY YOU CAN DONT BE PASSIVE!

ora_43

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 5:10 pm

Uhh... is that story supposed to prove that parents can confront bullies without being bullies themselves? Because that's not really what I took away from it.

In fact, the idea of a parent scaring the h*ll out of a little kid and humiliating him in front of his friends for *eyeing* her son, while giving his parents zero chance to prove their ability to address the issue calmly, is kind of exactly what scares me about the whole idea.

Your claim that the child never bullied another child again can't be anything but baseless. Seriously, how on earth would you know that?

Barbara

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 5:15 pm

MuppetLover wrote:

Wonderful. Your husband thought that a kid was looking at your son the wrong way, and, KNOWING that the kid had mental health issues, took it upon himself to terrify the kid so much that the child urinated in his pants, humiliating him in public.

And THEN called the kid a *terrorist* to his mother.

Because this little 10 year old LOOKED at your son. Didn't do anything. Didn't say anything. Just LOOKED.

Can we talk about who is the bully here? Your husband should be ashamed of himself, terrorizing and humilaiting a little boy. And should ask mechilla of the boy and his family. THree times. Because if I were the boy's family, I'd be down in court getting a restraining order against your husband.

I'm literally sick reading this.

MuppetLover

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 5:19 pm

Bc a) I live in a VERY small community and this boy was a VERY big problem.
And I dont believe in this "being senstive thing" What are terrorists if not bullies on a bigger basis?

You give a bully a dose of his own medicine other wise your kid and other kids can end up getting hurt. In my kids school case, they have a ZERO bullying tolerance and pull any kid who is found bullying out, this mother just didnt care enough to teach her kid a lesson. And why should MY kid suffer bc YOUR kid has an issue?

If it was my kid who was the bully and I couldnt end my kids horrid behavior, I would be glad if someone could help me. I would be embarrassed and ashamed. And this mother WASNT. She told people often, I ncluding my own DH that she cant do anything nad he will grow out of it. NOT ON MY KIDS EXPENSE LADY.

Im all for not embarrassing another jew, etc. I feel bad I had to do it. That buval saw my kid standing alone and saw a way to make himself feel good in front of his friends, (who, would have been moritfied those boys are actually really good boys who do a lot of chesed for their young age)
Lets be real: If your kid is acting out and you cant stop it what do you do? Especially in a way that hurts other peoples kids. you cant expect another parent NOT to protect their kid...

Barbara

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 5:26 pm

MuppetLover wrote:

Did this kid do anything to hurt your kid on the day that your husband made threats against him and humiliated him, in public? Yes or no. Because all you said that the kid did is *look at* your son.

The kid made a mistake. Once. You spoke to the parents. They said that he was following the other kid. They also pointed out that their son suffers from mental issues. There wasn't another incident. Other than someone DARING, yes DARING to actually be in shul and look at your son.

Your husband is a bully. You are a bully, gloating over the fact that your husband humiliated a child.

Fox

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 5:28 pm

MuppetLover wrote:

The kid pished in his pants in front of friends.

This is one of the most humiliating, horrifying things I have ever heard -- either on imamother or IRL. Yes, my kids have been bullied; yes, I have been bullied. But this is not standing up for your child, this is Abu Ghraib-style torture.

I sincerely hope that you offered to pay for the therapy needed for this child. If you cannot or do not want to do so, please contact a social service agency to ensure that the child gets proper help.

Fox

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 5:59 pm

Whew! Now that I've calmed down accidentally reading about someone being frightened until he/she loses control of bodily functions in a public setting, I can think straight again!

I'm not a big fan of confronting bullies directly. Barbara and others have outlined some of the problems. Basically, it's a conflict of interest: As parents, we need to be unequivocally on our children's "side" -- even when the situation is not 100 percent clear cut. When we make ourselves judge, jury, and executioner, we have to either relinquish our support of our children or accept that we are biased. Please note that by "support," I do not mean that we should shelter our children from consequences of their actions or defend inappropriate behavior -- merely that our kids need to feel that we will sympathize and encourage them no matter what.

In the OP's case, the situation is pretty clear-cut; unfortunately, that is not the case in many interactions among children (or adults!).

The bigger issue, to me, is a school that seems to shrug its shoulders in the face of bullying. Even if we solve the problem of this individual bully and he turns into a tzaddik tomorrow, the underlying problem remains.

Bullying, near-bullying, quasi-bullying, and not-niceness occur when they are allowed to occur. The school needs to be actively training kids in middos and responding to unacceptable behavior -- not just hoping for the best. I am usually not quick to suggest that people change schools, and I don't know if it's even a possibility for the OP. However, the fact that the school seems completely unable to cope with this problem makes me wonder how good a job they do in general.

gryp

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 6:11 pm

Fox wrote:

MuppetLover wrote:

The kid pished in his pants in front of friends.

I think it's just an expression, not literal. Meant to describe extreme fear. I hope so, anyway.

Thanks, MuppetLover for being the perfect example and proving my posts. Adults should not be confronting children because their emotions get in the way of reason and they become the bully.

gryp

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 6:25 pm

Quote:

When we make ourselves judge, jury, and executioner, we have to either relinquish our support of our children or accept that we are biased.

Exactly. If an adult is allowed to appoint herself as judge, jury, and executioner of a child who isn't her own, our society is in trouble. To your own kid, if you think that's proper chinuch, that's your business. To another kid? A major borderline has been crossed.

Schools are not going to change unless the parents insist they change. So, it's up to us parents: Do we want to solve the problem or do we want to be bullies ourselves?

amother

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 6:51 pm

It depends if the bully is just a kid with some minor power issues, or if he has some serious big-time issues and could really end up hurting your child.

I was told this by a school psychologist:

Regular, run-of-the-mill bullies, let the bully's parents, teachers, principal etc get involved to take care of the problem.

Bully with severe issues, if the parents are not disciplining or acknowledging the problem, YOU have EVERY RIGHT to protect your own child. Your husband should put on his most serious face, approach the bully and inform him calmly and methodically of the steps he will take and the severe consequences of the bully's actions, should they continue.

Ex: Yeshivas will not allow boys who hit younger children to be in school. I know you will NOT ever harm another child again, since you do not want to be kicked out of your school and have no school to go to. If I ever hear of you harming anyone, I will show up in your school and tell the principal about you.

Whatever you do, don't touch the little snake. His parents could make a fortune off a lawsuit.

Fox

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 6:54 pm

gryp wrote:

Schools are not going to change unless the parents insist they change. So, it's up to us parents: Do we want to solve the problem or do we want to be bullies ourselves?

You are 100 percent correct!

So once again I find myself in a thread where I've pointed the finger at an apparently ineffective school administration without having any real advice to offer the OP.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but I'm curious if anyone has had experience helping a school become more proactive in preventing bullying as well as actually teaching kids how to relate to one another in a positive fashion.

I've seen an incredible decrease in bullying in my son's school combined with more positive behaviors, so I know it can be done!

Barbara

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 7:03 pm

amother wrote:

Do your schools really have such draconian rules? That if a kid *ever* hits another kid, they are kicked out, and no school will ever take them?

Why does this remind me of the first grader who picked up a chicken finger at lunch, pointed it at a friend, and said *bang bang* and was suspended?

Of course, I'd check these draconian rules of your school. Because if they ban a kid for hitting once, are you sure that they don't ban the kids of parents who threaten small kids?

Barbara

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 7:09 pm

Fox wrote:

gryp wrote:

Schools are not going to change unless the parents insist they change. So, it's up to us parents: Do we want to solve the problem or do we want to be bullies ourselves?

DS' school is at least making an effort. Its talking to kids, to parents, to teachers. Trying to teach them better ways to interact, and how to counteract bullying.

But so many of their efforts are unknown to the general school population. DS has a friend who is always lovely to us, but who, according to DS, has been known to bully other kids. And through DS, and through the boy's parents, we know of the discipline, the watching over him, the intervention, the restrictions, and the one-on-one counseling, that has gone on. But almost no one else knows about it.

Of course we need to protect our kids. But we cannot do that by becoming bullies ourselves.

life'sgreat

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 7:11 pm

gryp wrote:

life'sgreat wrote:

gryp wrote:

Quote:

Neither is a fourth grader bullying a first grader.

And from this we learn to become the bully ourselves?

It's the most helpless feeling in the world when your kid is being bullied and you know that you can stop it because of your size and age, but you still need to do it the right way. Even if you need to pull your kid out of school until it's taken care of. Be proactive, go down to school and raise a ruckus, but you can't confront a child one-on-one.

Talking to a child = bullying?

You stop it because of your understanding, and responsibility towards your own children. Not because of your size and age.

I see nothing wrong in confronting a child one on one to put a stop to them bullying your own child. And again, I'm not sure what you think this confrontation would look like. Telling a child sternly that they shouldn't DARE to ever touch your child again isn't confronting, or bullying. It's being an authority to a child that's lacking authority.

Life- perhaps YOU would have the seichel to get through to a bully child in a nice way. But when a parent is mad as heck at a kid for hurting his/her own, seichel doesn't usually have front seat.

I've heard from a teacher of young boys that mothers are always marching into the classroom to take care of the kid bullying hers. The teacher explains every time that it is inappropriate for an adult to confront a child one-on-one and he will take care of it. And he does. And the mothers always understand right away about the not level playing field and agree that it would be better left to proper authorities, ie. school (principal/teacher) and the bully's parents. The issue is solved much more satisfactorily that way. As well as permanently because the bully child isn't looking for another victim and isn't under the threat of another bully, ie. the adult.

a. I was bullied as a child, and as such, know the effects of being bullied and the feeling that no adults even bothered to look my way, even though the school was fully aware of what was going on (crying every. single. day. for one whole year?).
b. I've had to deal with a bully with my son and seeing that the parents (mother AND father) were completely ok with the idea that their son is really bullying him, I had to take matters into my own hands. I simply went over to him and told him that he will not, shall not, touch my son. If he has an issue with my son, he can come and talk to me, but I will not tolerate him doing anything to my son. Zehu. I don't see that as bullying.

gryp

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 7:13 pm

Honestly, I've started relying on teachers, forget the administration. I know that if my child has a good teacher, we're pretty much set in all areas.

I know one teacher who has put in an incredible amount of effort and energy into solving classroom social dynamics over the years. From giving group projects to reading therapy books made for kids (to teach them how to deal with different social issues) and having long discussions about it afterwards.

I said in one of my posts today that I almost kept my oldest home from school today because he told me that a classmate has been doing weird stuff to him and every time my son told him to quit it, he just did it more. (My poor son has finally learned to say "Stop!" when someone is bothering him, and it's not even effective. Sad

)I allowed him to go to school on the condition that he speak to his teacher about this problem the minute he sees him this morning. When my son came home this afternoon, he told me: Problem solved.

I could have blown a fit, called the parents, threatened the kid. But I know my son has a great Rebbi and I can trust him to take care of it. And I know that not only do I not have to worry about this happening anymore but the child who was doing this to my son now knows that when someone uses his words and says "Stop!" he needs to respect that and listen.

life'sgreat

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 7:27 pm

gryp wrote:

life'sgreat wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

life'sgreat wrote:

It isn't 'adult vs child'. It's a parent protecting their own child. I'm not sure what you think the adult would do, other than talk to the bully. He wouldn't bully said child, but talk to said child.

If it were just a question of talking, the first grader could do it. Obviously the point is that the person talking will be bigger and stronger and older than the bully, and will scare the bully (which OP specifically said would be part of the plan, frightening the bully with threats of police involvement).

Right. You're an authority. That still doesn't make it bullying. That makes you the parent of your child that needs to be protected. I didn't see the police involvement threat. I think warning a child not to lay hands on your child is something that every parent has a right to do.

You aren't an authority over the other child and that gives you no right to discipline, threaten, or confront him, in any way.

I know people do it, I've wanted to do it myself many times, but if the adult thinks about it reasonably (ie., not emotionally), the conclusion should be that it is wrong. Better left up to those who have authority over the child.

I am an authority over MY child and have a right to do whatever I need to, via normal means, to make sure he is safe. If it means being firm with another child in warning him not to hurt/harm my son, then that's what I, as his mother, should be doing. I am not threatening, nor disciplining. I am saying you do not have a right to bully my child.

Fox

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 7:30 pm

Barbara wrote:

That was what I was thinking, too. Actually, I was remembering the high-achieving boy scout who brought his scout pen knife to school for show-and-tell, thus violating the "zero tolerance for weapons" rule and earning a lengthy suspension.

Bullying is even harder to parse, since it can include so many different behaviors -- some of which are almost invisible even to relatively savvy adults.

Barbara wrote:

DS has a friend who is always lovely to us, but who, according to DS, has been known to bully other kids. And through DS, and through the boy's parents, we know of the discipline, the watching over him, the intervention, the restrictions, and the one-on-one counseling, that has gone on. But almost no one else knows about it.

This is an excellent point. Even the best school has to tread a fine line between reassuring other parents that a situation is being addressed while keeping personal information confidential. I guarantee that none of us wants the principal to spill everything he/she knows about our family, background, and home life to anyone who saunters in with a complaint about our kids!

That makes it doubly hard of the parents of the victim, who have no idea whether a problem is really being addressed or not.

life'sgreat

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 7:38 pm

gryp wrote:

Fox wrote:

MuppetLover wrote:

The kid pished in his pants in front of friends.

No, she didn't prove the point you are trying to make because even I, who think as a mother I need to confront the child if no one else will, was horrified when reading her posts. That's way more awful than what the bully did (not even sure what the offense was).

There's a vast difference between what MuppetLover did vs what I suggested, which is to simply walk over to the child, and firmly say you are not to touch my son. No threats, no police, no nothing.