Is it okay to confront the kid who's bullying my kid?

life'sgreat

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 7:59 pm

gryp wrote:

I will say that bullying in school and bullying out of school are two different scenarios. LG and Chayalle gave examples of out of school, my experiences have only been in school.
In school, you must go through the proper authority. Out of school, while just playing on the block or wherever, and bully's parents are absent in their parenting role, I would go up to the child bully, but treading very carefully. Ie., making sure I was not taking on the role of a bully myself. And it's a very thin line, but it's there, if you know what to say and how to say it.

I agree regarding the bolded. I was thinking about this thread throughout the day and realized that it's two different situations. I hope I never have to deal with bullying at all, but especially in school.

ora_43

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 9:29 pm

life'sgreat wrote:

There's a vast difference between what MuppetLover did vs what I suggested, which is to simply walk over to the child, and firmly say you are not to touch my son. No threats, no police, no nothing.

True. I think different things are getting confused. I think parents need to be very, very careful before deciding that a child they don't know needs to be threatened or scared (which was something OP mentioned as a possibility), but that doesn't mean they can't say in a pleasant voice, "That's not nice," or "You need to stop that," or something of the kind.

I wouldn't trust myself to be an objective judge of when to threaten a child (if nothing else because without knowing the child, there's no way of knowing what's causing his/her behavior and if threats would even work), but I'm fine with calmly and nicely asking a child to stop doing something bad if I myself see them doing it. Although I don't say "don't touch my child" in cases like that, I say something more general like "It's not OK to hit."

gryp

Wed, Jun 15 2011, 7:54 am

My point was, LG, that society cannot allow parents to confront children they have no authority over because although we'd all like to think we're objective and using reason over emotion, the truth is that only a very small percentage of adults are actually capable of that.

That's why ML was a perfect example. How many people would shout: I'm not emotional! and do something completely inappropriate. While there may be a few mothers out there who I'd allow to talk to my child, I'm sorry to say but most mothers out there do not have very good judgement when it comes to these things. And good judgement doesn't have to not include embarrassing, physically harrassing, or tormenting. Good judgement means that if you're putting yourself in the position of judge, jury, and executioner, you are extremely careful with what you do and how you go about it, taking all factors into consideration.

life'sgreat

Wed, Jun 15 2011, 8:56 am

gryp wrote:

As long as I'm aware of what I want my message to be to said child, I don't think I need to be objective. That doesn't automatically turn me into a bully.

There's a neighbor that's just a bit older than my son that never, ever plays with the other kids. He either keeps to himself, or fights with the other kids. His mother is never around to even witness this behavior and talking to her hasn't resulted in anything. He'll pick fights with any kid, be they 4 years younger than him, or his age. I've told him very firmly that he dare not touch my son and if he has any issues, I'm sitting right there and he can come over to discuss it with me. Thankfully, this was enough to stop him. I wasn't bullying. I wasn't screaming. I wasn't threatening. I was firm. I don't see anything wrong in doing so if his own mother isn't around/available to even notice that her son has these issues.

fortunate123

Wed, Jun 15 2011, 6:12 pm

There seems to be two very different schools of thought on this issue, and I think there is a simple solution. While one school of thought is based on "Do whatever it takes to protect your child if parents of bully and school are not doing their part" the other school of thought holds that parents of the victim are not impartial and therefore will most likely act out of emotion rather than with careful judgment, making it questionable if the bully will be treated with the dignity we would expect given to any human being.

I think the simple solution is to involve the parents of the bully even if they are not interested. It is their child and therefore they must be involved. I think the parents of the victim need to be very clear to the parents of the bully what, to the best of their knowledge, is going on and what they intend to do about it. If phone calls are not being returned, then send them a message that you will be SHOWING UP AT THEIR HOUSE at a designated time for a meeting with them (or at a central location where you know you can have a few words privately with them). If they still refuse, send them a message that you have tried to involve them in the process of solving the problem but that because they are unwilling to work with you, you will have to handle the problem on your own, and let them know that you will be approaching their child at a designated time and place - and invite them to be there.

At that point, if they still continue to remain uninvolved, you have every right and obligation to continue handling the problem yourself and to speak with the child alone as planned. Obviously, because you originally planned for the parents to be there, your conversation with the child should be exactly as it would if his/her parents were there with him - not intimidating or threatening, but very clear about what you will and will not tolerate and what you plan to do if the problem continues.

Kayza

Wed, Jun 15 2011, 11:43 pm

gryp wrote:

You aren't an authority over the other child and that gives you no right to discipline, threaten, or confront him, in any way.

What gives a parent the right, is the right that every person has to self-defense.

Quote:

I know people do it, I've wanted to do it myself many times, but if the adult thinks about it reasonably (ie., not emotionally), the conclusion should be that it is wrong. Better left up to those who have authority over the child.

Actually, the reverse is true. If you think about it rationally, it's quite clear that when a child is being bullied, and the "proper authorities" (school and bully's parents) are not dealing with it, that a parent has the right to do whatever it takes to protect the victim, the same way each person has the right to self-protection.

ora_43

Wed, Jun 15 2011, 11:47 pm

life'sgreat wrote:

gryp wrote:

Quote:

Although I don't say "don't touch my child" in cases like that, I say something more general like "It's not OK to hit."

Yes! Simply teach the lesson of right from wrong instead of putting yourself in there. Because that's not much of a lesson except: That's an adult who's bigger and stronger.

Telling a bully that it's not ok to hit is not usually effective.

Either the bully will back off when an adult gets involved, or they won't. If they will, it's enough to tell them not to hit (which also gives the message, "there's an adult watching"), if they won't, I don't see how telling them not to hit your child specifically would be any more effective.

BeershevaBubby

Thu, Jun 16 2011, 12:16 am

When my daughter was being bullied and the parents took the 'oh no, not MY little angel' and the school was no help, I told my daughter that the best thing she could do was hit back harder when the other girl started up.

I told her that whatever the other girl did to her first, she should do harder.

I told her the first time she stands up for herself would be the last time this girl would pick on her.

And that's exactly what happened.

A parent approaching some else's kid is not the safest thing and laying a hand on someone else's kid is all kinds of bad and potential for legal problems.

You want to advocate for your child? Then become a pest. Call the school every day, call the parents every day until something is resolved. Get other parents involved and start a 'bully-free' school.

gryp

Thu, Jun 16 2011, 8:51 am

fortunate123 wrote:

Great post.

gryp

Thu, Jun 16 2011, 9:03 am

Kayza wrote:

gryp wrote:

Another boy bullied my son for two years straight until suddenly he stopped. I don't know why, somehow he matured a bit and became a nicer kid.

!!!

I'm having a hard time with the idea that you could allow this to go on. You call this "resolving things in the right way"? I call it child neglect.

You can think what you want, but there is another aspect to this that hasn't been mentioned which is teaching the victim to stand up for himself. And that's what we were doing for those two years. We were in close contact with the teachers those years and they both did their best working with us, my son, and the other kid. My son tells me now that this same kid is much nicer now and they even play together sometimes. The only plausible explanation I have for this is that his life at home turned around. As for my son, he wasn't scarred and it turned out to be a learning experience he needed.

Fox

Thu, Jun 16 2011, 10:32 am

gryp wrote:

This is an excellent point, Gryp!

I was reluctant to mention it because the age difference between the boys in the OP's situation makes this less relevant to her specific problem, IMHO. In addition, I was sure I'd be bashed for "blaming the victim"!

However, in a discussion of bullying, I do think it's important for parents to do as much as possible to "bully-proof" their kids. My son had similar situation: there was a small cadre of boys in his class who made his life miserable with low-key harassment, occasionally erupting into actual physical attacks.

Our school was extremely responsive and proactive, even when the incidents occurred outside of school. At the same time, my son saw a clinical social worker -- a young frum man who had been through the yeshiva system himself -- and learned ways to make himself a less appealing target. Like Gryp's son, DS gets along adequately with these boys now, plays baseball with them, etc.

Again, I'm not sure this is 100 percent relevant to the OP's situation, since there is a fairly large age gap between the bully and victim. But it really is worthwhile to understand that "bully-proofing" your child is not the same as blaming the victim. Even if you de-fang one bully, you can't neutralize every bully your child is going to encounter in life, and learning how to recognize and handle bullies is a valuable skill to have.

Oh, I'll mention one other thing: whenever I talked to the school authorities, rebbeim, and teachers about the problem, I was very careful to always ask if my DS was doing anything that might be encouraging the bullies or if they had any suggestions for changes in his behavior that might discourage the bullies. In some cases, there were things my son was doing/not doing that had an effect. In other cases, the menahel thundered that my son was completely innocent of any provocation at all. I strongly believe that my openness to attacking the problem from both ends made them more sympathetic and responsive to the legitimate problem that existed.

gryp

Thu, Jun 16 2011, 11:04 am

There are programs out there that teach you how to bully-proof children. Google will bring up some good sites. The one specific program I'm thinking of, I found years back and it was pretty simple steps to teach and practice with a child. For example, a victim when confronted by a bully will usually slouch in fear, so step #1 would be to teach the child to straighten his back and stand up tall. The next steps would be looking fearless, ie. looking the bully in the eye, etc etc. I know a teacher who did this with his student who was being picked on by his classmates.

My own son has other issues and is more subdued than the average kid. Which is why we are still working on this with him. As much as he's advanced, as his peers grow, he needs to adjust and adapt his skills for the same kids who are now 3-5 years older than before.

amother

Thu, Jul 14 2011, 6:19 am

I'm writing this as amother, to protect the innocent and the guilty.

Some schools just don't care. They are a lot more worried about who is a big donor, who has a big name in the community, and who's paying full tuition. Single parents on assistance don't count for anything, and neither do their children. G-d forbid you're a ger, or your child. Then you're the lowest of the low.

My daughter was kicked black and blue every day through kindergarten and first grade by a boy who's dad is a Big Name rabbi. The school refused to do anything, and it got so bad that my daughter started waking up with headaches and stomach aches, and then flat out refusing to get dressed in the morning, refused to turn in homework, etc. She was a nervous wreck at the age of 6! She wouldn't even go to the last day of school for the ice cream party. She just wanted it to be over with already.

The next year I switched schools, but things just got worse. A new boy decided to pick on her. Different Big Name rabbi, big family, and they were well known for letting their kids run wild. Dd got kicked and punched almost daily, and once almost got her glasses broken. Many calls and conferences with the principals did nothing. Emails to the parents went unanswered. I tried to talk to the boy's mom once, and she just shrugged and smiled in that "ain't he the little dickens?" kind of way.

One day, my daughter had had enough. She's small for her age, she's behind in math, and the other kids were teasing her about it. The boy in question started pushing her around, and she snapped. She kicked back. Once.

I got called in, and she was expelled on the spot, no second chances. They said that I complain too much, and that "there's nothing they can do about it". Zero tolerance, they said. They said that she wasn't learning, and that I should put her in a public school. How is a little girl supposed to learn if she is getting beaten up all day? Not only that, how can a Yid tell me that my kid is better off in a public school?!

Now, she's in a safer school, and she's learning, but she's losing her Judaism. She's getting lazy about davening, and doesn't want to learn Hebrew or parsha after school. All of her school friends are non jews - as a matter of fact, it's about 75% Muslim!

My daughter's sweet little Yiddeshe neshamah is suffering, because the schools don't want to risk upsetting Rabbi So-n-So and their precious little boys. What kind of middos are these kids learning? How do the parents and school staff sleep at night? How can Yidden do this to each other?

Thanks to the bullies, and the useless excuses for schools around here, I'm now looking at having to sell my house and move to another town in order to find a Jewish school that 1. is all girls and 2. will protect ALL girls.

Just to be fair, I'll put it on record that if it was MY kid who was the bully, I'd be giving her 6 kinds of h*ll, and making her apologize. Then I'd make her clean up the lunch room for a week. I'd also be THANKING the parents who complained, for telling me what I needed to work on with her.

It takes a village, but if the village doesn't care, then you're still on your own.