BY girl/Yeshiva boy in Ivy League

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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling

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amother

Thu, Aug 18 2011, 9:23 am

I was MO when I entered and when I graduated ('07) a small Ivy. It was/is a tiny orthodox community, but several of the students got married during college-- I got married 2 yrs after and all my frum college friends are married now. I think I got a bit more frumer (tzinut, learning, davening w/ tzibur) in college b/c it was a small community w/ a very positive culture. That said...it wasn't always easy!

I certainly think that the outstanding education I received has helped me professionally, personally and in terms of the way I approach Jewish life. For the record-- my parents, grandparents attended Ivys as well.

DovDov

Thu, Aug 18 2011, 9:53 am

I can't answer the dorm question because most of the people I knew lived at home, boarded with frum families, or had frum-only apartments, but I know many BY girls who went on to very competitive universities and did just find educationally. Better than many the first year because they are much more used to really working -- college seems like a joke after a double curriculum high school.

Thu, Aug 18 2011, 10:34 am

JAWSCIENCE wrote:

I even know some people who became MORE religious in some ivys because a small community can be very close knit whereas a giant community in Touro or Brooklyn college can be very impersonal, people get left out of cliques, infighting happens etc..

I also know people who became less religious. These were kids who had these tendencies beforehand. They were all ready having some issues at home and bucking the standards set by their parents.

So very true (although cliques and infighting can occur in very small groups as well...). The tiny Orthodox college community set the standard for me for many years after graduation.

There are a lot of reasons people go OTD, but the simple fact of exposure to the outside world isn't the problem.

I'd like to reinforce that living on campus is not necessary, and in some cases not even possible if campus housing is limited. Young adults keeping Shabbat and kashrut in their own aparments gain valuable experience, both logistical as homemaker-students, as well as in terms of personal Jewish development. I don't think you will find them on imamother panicking because they just got married and can't cook!

amother

Thu, Aug 18 2011, 10:40 am

With "just" a yeshiva education, my brother got accepted into several ivy leagues colleges. Instead, he went to Israel and became a Rabbi.

Why is it so hard to believe that yeshiva students get accepted into prestigious universities?

bigsis144

Thu, Aug 18 2011, 11:19 am

From my high school contemporaries (the girls in my grade, and the grade above and below me in high school), I can think of 3 who went on to major institutions - Harvard, MIT and UCLA. (I know that only Harvard is Ivy League).

JollyMommy

Thu, Aug 18 2011, 12:29 pm

does USC count? if so, most of my family and yes, stayed as frum as they were going in!

we also have a John Hopkins, UCSD, UCSB, a few UCLA and yes all married and stayed frum.

JollyMommy

Thu, Aug 18 2011, 12:32 pm

btw I happen to think it's EASIER to get in when you go to religious school because you are one of a few (or only 1) from there who applied. I actually don't know anyone who applied from these schools and was rejected!

Thu, Aug 18 2011, 12:52 pm

esteec wrote:

does USC count?

Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Cornell, University of Pennsylvania, Columbia, Dartmouth, Brown.

It's really just an athletic conference, albeit one with high academic standards and a distinctive culture as a group, although all the schools are different from one another.

Johns Hopkins, MIT and other highly selective elite colleges/universities have similar academic distinctions. I have been told that Notre Dame is like the Ivy of the Midwest. I'm not familiar with California schools.

Dolly Welsh

Thu, Aug 18 2011, 12:53 pm

Nobody puts down MO; you're on this website, you're fine. Yes, our nation has benefited tremendously from those who went into the world. As you say, depends on the individual.

Not being aware of how much you ffb people know or don't know about the uncharming traps and failures of the secular world, I got nervous. What failures? How about a median age over fifty, and a negative birthrate? In a half century they will be a footnote to our history if they are remembered at all.

"Lots of babies" is what is needed now, not necessarily from everybody, but in general. No, perhaps not everybody is suited to that. But make no mistake about it, the nation is more in need of babies now than it is in need of female French majors or even female big league cancer researchers. And yes, there is a misty area where it can be one or the other, even though that perhaps should not be true. But sometimes it is. From what I read above, some manage it all and do fine. Great. I didn't know that, not having seen a lot of people with your strong faith.

But gloriosky, the day and the year only have so many hours. My own mother z"l "did it all" and there was a lot of strain around the edges. And she was smarter and tougher than anybody alive, had an excellent secular education, and even she felt the strain of doing three things at once: mother, wife of an interesting man, serious job. Perhaps we really cannot "do it all". And yes, it's different for men. Complain to Management. BTW the total Jewish world population is fourteen million. That's a rounding error in some contexts.

Peer into the mist and make your decisions. Some of the stories above do not end well, so just be careful.

MaBelleVie

Thu, Aug 18 2011, 1:18 pm

Which rabbanim today are saying that our priority as a nation is to make lots of babies?

sequoia

Thu, Aug 18 2011, 1:30 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

Not being aware of how much you ffb people know or don't know about the uncharming traps and failures of the secular world, I got nervous.

There are probably as many BTs and converts as FFB people on this website.

And I assure you, if someone told me Hashem required me to drop out of college and burn my Pushkin and Chaucer, I would never have become frum.

Dolly, people need to fulfill their OWN potential.

nylon

Thu, Aug 18 2011, 1:43 pm

4 years of Ivy League = $225K at current prices. IF you pay full whack, which you need to make quite a bit of money to do.

Tell me where in Jerusalem you can buy an apartment at that price--and you won't have the skills to pay the rest of the bills.

If my kid were smart enough and worked hard enough to get into an Ivy League or comparable university, I'd be happy for them to go. Ultimately, you're paying for the sheepskin at the end, and the name on it counts--and the best colleges do offer a better education. I'm a little biased, since the state schools in my state are not cheap (apparently, Penn State is the most expensive public college in the US).

BTW, I'm a BT who went to a secular college. Not Ivy.

jade

Thu, Aug 18 2011, 1:47 pm

For what it's worth - I am an ffb, went to Yale, did not live in the dorms. Yes, there is a rule about that. I flat-out told the dean - I am not suing anyone, I am not making a big stink about this, but I am not living there either. No one ever hassled me about it. And, yes, I can see that it might have been more of a sacrifice had I not been on scholarship,insofar as I would have been paying for a room I wasn't using.

I don't think I changed in terms of frumkeit during these years. Then again, I was always a bit of an introvert, and when I got to college, I basically went, OMG! This library! Forget socializing - people will always be around, but I have only three years to spend in this library!

I was married towards the end of my senior year, got on with the baby-having, along with career, etc etc. Yes, it's been difficult. On the other hand, seeing some of the things posted here by SAHMs, or part-time workers, I don't think there's really an easy way in life.

Another thing - I feel strongly that these three years where I could focus on my education and was free to make my choices really contributed to my growth as a person, and enhance the other aspects of my life, including raising children. No, it is not for everyone, but some people can really benefit, and not all the benefits consist of bigger paycheck.

Dolly Welsh

Thu, Aug 18 2011, 2:35 pm

Good for Jade! Great story. And Sequoia, I completely agree with you. And the others too.

The people who listen to rabbanim don't need to be told, and the people who need to be told don't listen to rabbanim, so it's a little difficult.

It's all in G-d's hands. But you mentioned rope in the house of a hanged man and the hanged man had a reaction. I mean, you know, he could still talk even though hanged. You know what I mean. "Only I am left to tell you", - Iove. I personally know a lot of people with socially sterilized relatives who feel no pain. Yet. It might be different as the decades lumber on. The joke on them is cruel and hard to look at with a dry eye.

Well, internet forums are for venting, no? Am Yisroel Chai.

Jewishmofm

Thu, Aug 18 2011, 11:05 pm

I know some of the five personally. I know it's old news, but campus life is getting worse, not better. and the education gap beween ivy league and other schools is closing fast.(excepting one or two specialized areas) so what for?

sequoia

Thu, Aug 18 2011, 11:10 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

The people who listen to rabbanim don't need to be told, and the people who need to be told don't listen to rabbanim, so it's a little difficult.

Dolly, how familiar are you with modern Orthodox hashkafa?

Thu, Aug 18 2011, 11:29 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

"Lots of babies" is what is needed now, not necessarily from everybody, but in general.

Quality NOT Quantity

Dolly, you have much to learn about the other streams of orthodox Judaism.

Fox

Fri, Aug 19 2011, 1:06 am

I think the old paradigm of going to a competitive college as a way of becoming "educated" (however one wishes to define it) is sinking quickly into the mud. Between the incredible cost of private colleges; the strong influence of Marxist professors; the general atmosphere vis-a-vis alcohol and s-x . . . people who truly value education are increasingly voting with their feet . . . and staying home! Or pursuing their education in different ways.

Even 15 or 20 years ago, I would have agreed that a liberal arts education was tremendously valuable. The coursework taught critical thinking skills as well as a body of knowledge that allows one to understand references and influences of Western civilization, in particular. But what goes on at colleges has less and less to do with educating undergraduates and more and more to do with promoting faculty members' careers and enlarging administrators' turf.

If you truly want to be "educated," buy a few thousand dollars' worth of CDs/DVDs from The Teaching Company. I guarantee you'll be every bit as erudite as most Ivy League/Big Ten graduates.

If you need a college degree for credentialing purposes, use online resources along with community college courses, etc., and transfer your credits. Going to graduate school? Instead of going into debt to the tune of $200,000-$300,000, spend some money preparing for GMAT/GRE/LSAT/MCAT, etc., exams. Learn how to present yourself and your experience well in an interview so that you stand out from all those Harvard and Yale grads.

It's not completely accurate to say that competitive educational institutions are simply looking for diversity. The best-known universities have plenty of applicants representing a wide range of colors, religions, etc. They are, however, looking for interesting, articulate people who will add something to campus life, both intellectually and culturally. I spoke recently with an admissions representative at Northwestern University, and she remarked that the admissions committee has to work very hard not to give preferential treatment to home-schooled applicants because, as she put it, "They're usually really, really interesting people."

All that said, the average BY/Yeshiva grad is unlikely to want to spend the time or money on the 20th century's version of "the grande tour." And I think that's a wise choice. On the other hand, attending graduate school at such an institution may indeed be worth the sacrifice -- assuming that the student is adequately committed. And there are plenty of BY/Yeshiva grads who have patched together bachelor's degrees from credits earned here, there, and yonder -- and been admitted to top-tier grad schools on the basis of their test scores and their interviews.

sequoia

Fri, Aug 19 2011, 1:19 am

Fox wrote:

See Fox, I knew you were going to say that, but it simply isn't true.

None of my professors at CU were Marxist. Almost all of them were awesome. Now there ARE Marxist professors at every university, but you don't have to take their courses.

There was never any pressure, anywhere, regarding alcohol, drugs, or sx. Most of my [secular Russian immigrant] friends married the first person they slept with. No one drank or did drugs.

The cost, yes. But everyone had financial aid.

The best four years of my life. And some of the lectures were so beautiful, so finely put together, so passionately detailed and breathtakingly informative, that they made me cry. I often thought of how lucky I was to be there.

Tom Wolfe is just a dirty old man. Don't take his prurient books as gospel.

Fox

Fri, Aug 19 2011, 1:47 am

sequoia wrote:

Tom Wolfe is just a dirty old man. Don't take his prurient books as gospel.

LOL! This is why I love you, Sequoia! Everyone refers to less-successful Tom Wolfe novels more or less than Sequoia!

I'm terribly torn in discussions like this, because, like you, I loved, loved, loved my college experience. Plus, the entertainment industry focus of my alma mater provides an endless stream of attention-getting anecdotes. Of course, there are few occasions in my life now where it's really appropriate to tell about the time Paul Lynde got drunk and chased a tutu-clad frat boy around the quad; make snarky remarks about how much "Friends" money David Schwimmer funnels into some of our local theatres; or even reflect that Julia Louis-Dreyfus has had a bit of work done since she was a Delta Gamma back in the day.

And I'll be honest enough to admit that I enjoy the "ooh" and "aahh" power of a degree from a prestigious school, as well as seeing my undergraduate professors lauded and thinking, "Oh, yeah. I remember his course!"

But would I encourage my kids to attend my alma mater? Well, one of my kids wants to attend their evening division, which is fine by me. Another tells me that it seems like a very nice school, but that I clearly "drink the Kool-Aid" with regard to its merit. The other three manage to confuse it with a local driving school with a similar name.

But would I encourage them to take on significant debt -- assuming financial aid giveaways only covered so much? Probably not. The best professors all have courses available through The Teaching Company, and it's just too darned much money for the value received.

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