Materialistic vs. Spiritual vs. G-dly

Thu, Nov 16 2006, 10:26 am

anonymous amother - r u playing devils advocate?
throughout the ages there have been groups of Jewish people who only hold by Torah she'biksav and take the words of the chumash literally, like u wrote, dont keep food in the oven on shabbos b/c it says dont light a fire on shabbos.
Im assuming as u write "we, who consider ourselves observant" that u r religious and dont hold by these practices and use the guides passed down from the torah she'bal peh to direct us in fully observing the mitzvos an this is definitely not a pic'n'mix mentality.
So what if thats what others think, obviously they think wrong. It is they who r choosing 2 dismiss the halachos as explained to us by our Rabbis and picking the Chumash as the only source of direction.

PS. This is a discussion on "Materialistic V Spirtual V G-dly". What is ur post trying to say? These people in Africa are spiritual? They are G-dly? Im sorry but I didnt really understand ur point.

amother

Thu, Nov 16 2006, 10:34 am

Alot of what alot of us do is by rote- not bec. of a deep desire to do it or a deep understanding of why we do it. And, yes, I am willing to bet that these African Jews ARE very spiritual, not materialistic at all, rate their religion as the most important thing in their lives, and in greater percentages of the group, are following THEIR Rabbis and THEIR Mesorah to the letter, more than most of us do.

Motek

Thu, Nov 16 2006, 12:53 pm

amother wrote:

Why are you willing to bet that? Do you know any of these Africans personally? You don't sound sure of where they live, so what conclusions can you draw about their sincerity?

And what difference does it make anyway, when as cl explained, they're wrong. They might be spiritual people which is nice but that's not G-dly.

amother

Thu, Nov 16 2006, 1:04 pm

Motek wrote:

And what difference does it make anyway, when as cl explained, they're wrong. They might be spiritual people which is nice but that's not G-dly.

Why are they "wrong"? Who are we to judge? They are following their Mesorah and THEIR Rabbi's interpretations, just as you follow yours. They were at Sinai alongside us. They interpret the Torah differently.

Motek

Thu, Nov 16 2006, 1:06 pm

Is this a joke? Do you really not know the difference between why frum people practice as they do and them?

amother

Thu, Nov 16 2006, 1:08 pm

Motek wrote:

Is this a joke? Do you really not know the difference between why frum people practice as they do and them?

Tell me, I'm willing to hear.

Motek

Thu, Nov 16 2006, 1:52 pm

Do you believe that we received the Torah at Sinai and that Moshe was given the Written AND Oral Torah by G-d which he transmitted to Yehoshua etc. down to our times?

Thu, Nov 16 2006, 4:31 pm

So ur point anon amother is that they (the africans) are very spiritual?
I dont disagree. im sure u r right.

Like previous posters have said you can practice any religion and be spiritual but it does not make u G-dly.

I bet ur right about them not being Materialistic, and about many frum Jews holding onto Materiality too strongly. Living in the Western world we often define ourselves by our posssessions.
Altho many religious people use those possessions for good, and that elevates a material thing into a spiritual and G-dly thing.

They may even (altho this is all theoretical cos u aint brought no proof) listen to their leaders better than many religious Jewish people.
So I dont disagree with u there either.
You know what? from everyrthing in life u can learn a lesson. (Even a failed burgalar (sp?) who keeps trying 2 successfully pull off a heist can teach us never 2 give up when striving 4 a good goal) so maybe we can learn from these africans to listen better to our leaders?

RE: Why are thet wrong? I will let Motek answer that 4 u.

busymom

Thu, Nov 16 2006, 8:17 pm

amother wrote:

Alot of what alot of us do is by rote- not bec. of a deep desire to do it or a deep understanding of why we do it.

What's the point of this statement? Sadly, yes, there are "robot Jews" out there. But that doesn't mean that there aren't many others who HAVE developed a relationship with Hashem and DO serve Him with love and devotion.

Imaonwheels

Thu, Dec 07 2006, 8:53 am

amother wrote:

cl wrote:

I have heard many times from non-frum people, I dont practice many torah laws but I am a good person, I treat others kindly / with respect and I believe in G-d - "I feel G-d in my heart" so u can say that is a spiritual feeling but its definitely not G-dly cos you're not doing what HE wants. G-d asks us to do more than just FEEL he wants us to ACT by the laws he gave us. [/b]

re"ACT by the laws he gave us"-
Every religion and subreligion has its own set of rules and specific interpretations . Also, non frum Jews feel that the Torah can be analyzed differently. We, who consider ourselves very observant Jews, don't follow all the Mitzvos literally either. There is a Passuk in the Torah that says not to heat a fire on Shabbos, so there is a group (I think in Africa) that considers themselves very Jewish, that does not eat warmed foods on Shabbos and does not use electricity or even candles. They feel we are analyzing the Torah erroneously and are transgressing the Torah's sacred prohibitions. They feel that all people that use elecricity or candles are Mechalel Shabbos and using a pick and choose mentality with the Torah .

This group you are talking about are the Ethiopians who have immigrated to Israel and you don't have all of the facts. They were isolated from the rest of the Jewish world so much so that they have lost much of everything except a strong conviction they are Jewish. Yes, some of them died in the religious hospital they were purposely brought to on their first Shabbos because the food was brought on halachicly approved warming trays, something totally out of their experience. US hospitals don't have these special trays either.

Their own leaders, the kesim, recognize that they have been separated from the Jewish world and did not have access to proper information. They also realize that their practices were faulty based on lack of knowledge due to persecution and assimilation. The entire reason they are needing conversion on the basis of doubt is a kindness. Their losing the halachic procedure for marriage and divorce would make them all possible mamzerim.

The kesim who have undergone the giur l'chumra are now working or have obtained smicha so they can lead their people into a true halachic observance. They do not revere their former ignorance and call it mesora.

Their is one group who tells the story as you did. The far left in Israel who have an interest in dividing what ever community they can from rabbinical authority and the rest of religious Jews.

Lechatchila Ariber

Sun, May 13 2007, 8:49 pm

I haven't read the whole thread so I'm sorry If I'm just repeating something someone else has said...but the way I see it is

being a spiritual person is being someone who is inclined to G-dliness but not necessarily one who has reached that point.

You can have spiritual people that have gone the wrong way.
they have potential but are not necessarily using it the right way.

G-dliness however is Hashem.
a G-dly person would be a tzaddik
a G-dly site would be a place that Hashem's shechina is resting in
a G-dly people, would be...us Very Happy