reading "non jewish" books vs jewish books

tikva18

Wed, Dec 07 2011, 10:55 am

nylon wrote:

tikva18 wrote:

AGREED! And what kills me is the lack of 'ly endings on adverbs and adjectives. If I'm reading aloud to my children, then I will correct it. But the kicker for me is "on line" as "he was standing ON line". What? I had never heard of this until something I had written for a Jewish publisher was PUBLISHED incorrectly with "on line". Now I see it more places; however, all are Jewish. (And in case you did not know, the correct way to say that is "IN line".)

No and no. In NY, "on line" is correct and it is not just Jews. We all stand "on line" and it is perfectly correct.

Or the really correct thing is to queue up. Smile

why should a NYer change their correct local English? I don't want British books changed to American English either. "Eat by" is different.

I'll stick with my 'In line' being correct. Just yesterday I had a phone call from a telemarketer for a Jewish organization - he was the nicest telemarketer that I've ever spoken to - lol. He was calling from a 718 area code. He asked me (mind you he had my info in front of him to place my call) if there was a Jewish community near where I lived. He could see right on the paper that I live in CHICAGO! B"H, we have a large, thriving community here. When I said that I live in Chicago, his response was - " are there Jewish people near where you live? I once spoke to a woman in Canada and she said that there was nothing nearby" Scratching Head

.
Clearly, if a frum New Yorker (and he was) can't figure out that Chicago isn't in Canada or off the face of the earth where there are no Jews (I'm not drawing the comparison to Canada, he was), then I'm not going to buy into this 'ON line' being correct.
And here's a page from a guy who researched this: http://quay.wordpress.com/2006.....line/ (btw, IN line wins Very Happy

groisamomma

Wed, Dec 07 2011, 12:20 pm

tikva18 wrote:

nylon wrote:

tikva18 wrote:

No and no. In NY, "on line" is correct and it is not just Jews. We all stand "on line" and it is perfectly correct.

Or the really correct thing is to queue up. Smile

why should a NYer change their correct local English? I don't want British books changed to American English either. "Eat by" is different.

How can one person's idiocy reflect the intellect of all the people in that state?

Besides, he's a telemarketer and engaging you in conversation (meaningless or other wise) is another ploy meant to get you comfortable so you'll donate. I once spent a half hour arguing with a telemarketer whether 12 during the day is am or pm! I'd like to think that the rest of the people in Connecticut--where he was calling from--are a bit more intelligent than that.

Fox

Wed, Dec 07 2011, 12:32 pm

I probably should know better than to enter the "in line" versus "on line" fracas, but who can resist such a good yet ultimately meaningless fight!

My DH and I researched this years ago when our kids started to pick this expression up from their NY-reared teachers. According to a number of sources, including the Oxford American Dictionary as well as several books suggested to us by linguists and English professors who research language usage, "on line" is considered a "sub-standard usage" as opposed to a regional usage.

That puts "on line" in a different category from "soda" versus "pop." These are regional usages that refer to carbonated soft drinks, and neither one is technically more correct than the other. Not the case with "on line" versus "in line," where one is the preferred usage.

So we allow our children to say either "soda" or "pop," but we do not allow them to stand "on line."

As a side note, we also hound them constantly to speak with what is known as an "Upper Midwest" accent. This is the "accentless" American English used by broadcasters and is considered the "best" for purposes of communication, likability, and persuasion. We've been pretty successful at keeping them from acquiring Brooklyn accents from their friends and teachers, but we're constantly correcting those Chicago flat "a's".

All right! Let's see hands for how many imamothers think Fox and her DH took far too many classes in Northwestern's School of Speech!

tikva18

Wed, Dec 07 2011, 12:50 pm

Fox wrote:

YOU are my hero Batting Eyelashes

.

Tell me more about Chicago flat /a/'s, please? is that how Chicagoan's mangle the pronunciation of Chicago?

zaq

Wed, Dec 07 2011, 1:38 pm

tikva18 wrote:

zaq wrote:

Point of info Fox et.al: standing "on line" is not incorrect; it is a regional idiosyncracy that identifies the individual as being from New York City, not necessarily Jewish. It's completely acceptable usage, the way saying something is "different to" something else is completely acceptable, even though Americans know things are "different from" others.

That may be, but a magazine which is distributed worldwide should not have a New York idiosyncracy.

Why not? I would expect a writer from the Midwest to write about "pop" and one from Pittsburgh to write about "cokes". Your sub is my hero. My different to is your different from. Your pram is my stroller. If I'm in Zanzibar reading a 'zine published in NY, I should expect to encounter a few NY regionalisms, just as if I'm in LA reading a 'zine from Australia, I should expect a little Waltzing Matilda with my coffee.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Dec 07 2011, 1:56 pm

Squishy wrote:

chanchy123 wrote:

chocmom wrote:

shabbatiscoming, I thought it was brilliant. Definitely recommend it.

It sounds very V.C. Andrews (that's her name right?) to me. I can't deal with that, didn't read her when all my friends were reading her in high school.

V.C. Andrews is repulsive. Her books should be banned and burned. There is nothing redeeming in her writing. She is one sick individual.

I read flowers in the attic when I was much younger. I was disturbed, but why banned (from who exactly?) and burned? There are many such authors out there that write disturbing things. Just dont read it, but why banned and burned?

Fox

Wed, Dec 07 2011, 2:13 pm

tikva18 wrote:

Tell me more about Chicago flat /a/'s, please? is that how Chicagoan's mangle the pronunciation of Chicago?

Yes, and it's horrible! If you want a classic example:

Listen for words like "national" and "today."

Of course, Mayor Daley's accent was much, much worse 30 years ago -- he's worked with speech coaches over the years to mute it a little. If you want a real, unreconstructed Chicago accent, just get pulled over by any Chicago police officer. Honestly, I think they must kick anyone out of the police academy who doesn't get the accent right! Of course, cross the border into Skokie, and the police all speak impeccable English.

33055

Wed, Dec 07 2011, 2:40 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Squishy wrote:

chanchy123 wrote:

chocmom wrote:

shabbatiscoming, I thought it was brilliant. Definitely recommend it.

It sounds very V.C. Andrews (that's her name right?) to me. I can't deal with that, didn't read her when all my friends were reading her in high school.

V.C. Andrews is repulsive. Her books should be banned and burned. There is nothing redeeming in her writing. She is one sick individual.

Incest is disgusting! I am one who can easily skip over scenes where people are having relations. The incest is central to the story. Moreover, where they sell these books is disturbing. I have found them in hospital gift shops, local supermarkets and drug stores.

There is nothing redeeming about those books.

In an earlier post today, I made a joke about a Stephanie Plum book wherein her sister tries out lesbianism. Those books are tongue in cheek. V.C. Andrews shows up in the same place in my local library with other "hot" new books.

She should be banned and burned along with her books. I am only kidding; but I hope I created a visual. Anyone who knowingly reads her is a sick filthy pervert.

I feel this way about a couple of other fetishes. I would be just as disgusted if graphic fixation [filth] were found in similar locations and similar placement on the shelves and I unwittingly purchased it.

OTOH, where does it stop? It brings all kind of questions about censorship.

So if I were the made the rules. That author's books would not be allowed to be sold or displayed in areas where there are children. Children in this case being defined as anyone below 80.

amother

Wed, Dec 07 2011, 2:50 pm

Faigy86 wrote:

amother wrote:

Question for all who review their kids' books before letting them read them: How does that work practically speaking? Do your kids pick books at the library and you review before taking out / before giving it to them to read? Do you go alone and bring them home books?
My kids aren't reading yet, but I remember my mother telling us that some books were too old for us occasionally, and, stubborn child that I am, I just read it when she didn't see. I remember when I was around 7 or so taking out a book that my mother preread and decided not to give me. I threw a tantrum, ended up finding it under her bed and reading it (and not enjoying it either, I think it was some typical HS story that went right over my head.) I think she gave up on censoring our books around then.

I'm going to say that this has to do with the general chinuch attitude and if the children trust their parents decisions etc. If you tell your child not to eat something because it doesn't have a good hechsher - does he listen? If you tell them it is bed time, or they need to come inside, do they question or try to sneak around the decision. All of those are indicators as to whether children will listen to things their parents tell them whether or not they understand. The other question is, maybe you needed a better explanation of why the book wasn't appropriate for you, and a better understanding would have helped you resist the temptation.

I don't know ... I was a particularly stubborn kid, and definitely gave my parents a run for their money, but is that so unusual? To be curious about something in front of you that you are told not to read? (I never would have eaten something that they said not to kashrus-wise , definitely would read in bed / not go to sleep if I could get away with it)

imamiri

Wed, Dec 07 2011, 2:55 pm

Squishy wrote:

chanchy123 wrote:

chocmom wrote:

shabbatiscoming, I thought it was brilliant. Definitely recommend it.

It sounds very V.C. Andrews (that's her name right?) to me. I can't deal with that, didn't read her when all my friends were reading her in high school.

V.C. Andrews is repulsive. Her books should be banned and burned. There is nothing redeeming in her writing. She is one sick individual.

I am not a VC Andrews fan. But I am less of a fan of book burning and banning. I like the 1st Amendment too much. Don't like it? Don't read it. Book banning is a tactic of the fundamentalist right which has long been trying to chip away at First Amendment rights.

imamiri

Wed, Dec 07 2011, 3:00 pm

Squishy wrote:

I am puzzled about how the principals can ban things they know nothing about. My son's school is very strict. He is not allowed in a public library. I am not allowed to have the radio on in the car when he is in it even to get the traffic.

My young daughter had to do a report on Vayeshev when she was eight. I thought it was more graphic than to Kill A Mockingbird. Worse concepts than Seven Up.

How do they know if you have the radio on or if you go into a public library? Do they interrogate your children? See I glad this is why I am MO. I refuse to give control of my life to fearful wannabe despots that think anything secular will lead to being OTD.

amother

Wed, Dec 07 2011, 3:19 pm

imamiri wrote:

Squishy wrote:

Honestly, this sounds like Lakewood to me.

tikva18

Wed, Dec 07 2011, 3:24 pm

Fox wrote:

tikva18 wrote:

Tell me more about Chicago flat /a/'s, please? is that how Chicagoan's mangle the pronunciation of Chicago?

Ahhh!!! I'm becoming inured to it! I almost didn't hear his accent! Sad

I think I need help!
Although we used to frequent a fish store (aquatics, not food) and the owner had THE strongest accent ever. I ended up asking her where she was from, lol! - good ol' Chicago. rofl

I have had the good fortune of never speaking with the skokie police, and only have spoken with the Chicago ones when there was an incident outside (B"H, not regarding us).

I did notice my kids starting to pick up a Chicago accent - or is it a NY accent now? lol - and I've spoken to them about it. (and yes, I'm not from here, just lived here since '98.)

33055

Wed, Dec 07 2011, 7:06 pm

amother wrote:

imamiri wrote:

Squishy wrote:

Honestly, this sounds like Lakewood to me.

Lakewood? It is more like Hitler's Youth. The kids inform. One if my neighbors had another neighbor tell that her kids watched videos on line. She got called into the school.

I don't play the radio when I have my son's friends in the car. The mothers see the boys in the library. One told as she had to hire a babysitter and did not think it is fair. Personally, I just go to Barnes and Noble. Other Mom's go to other towns. I was called to the principal's office because my son had electronic games which are not banned; but they said it could interfere with his learning. Only another kid could have informed.

I just look for loopholes, technically comply and trust in Hashem, I am doing the correct thing.

I read the rules very literally. For example: the rules say be cautious with smart phones. It does not ban them or forbid the kids to use them. Interesting. What does be cautious actually mean?

imamiri

Wed, Dec 07 2011, 9:05 pm

Squishy wrote:

amother wrote:

imamiri wrote:

Squishy wrote:

Honestly, this sounds like Lakewood to me.

Wow. Why such an atmosphere of fear and Big Brother-ness?

It is a lot more relaxed in the MO and west coast world!

33055

Wed, Dec 07 2011, 11:38 pm

imamiri wrote:

Squishy wrote:

chanchy123 wrote:

chocmom wrote:

shabbatiscoming, I thought it was brilliant. Definitely recommend it.

It sounds very V.C. Andrews (that's her name right?) to me. I can't deal with that, didn't read her when all my friends were reading her in high school.

V.C. Andrews is repulsive. Her books should be banned and burned. There is nothing redeeming in her writing. She is one sick individual.

Obscenity is not protected by the first amendment. As Justice Stewart said about obscenity is that he knows it when he sees it.

If you see in an earlier post in this thread, I do have censorship concerns.

I have recently read a James Patterson novel about King Tut. It necessarily has incest in it. One at least expects this when one reads about Pharaohs.

I have also read Eldridge Cleaver's Soul On Ice. I was forewarned. I would have been shell shocked if I picked up this book under the circumstances of way I read V.C. Andrews's book.

33055

Wed, Dec 07 2011, 11:56 pm

imamiri wrote:

Squishy wrote:

amother wrote:

imamiri wrote:

Squishy wrote:

Honestly, this sounds like Lakewood to me.

Wow. Why such an atmosphere of fear and Big Brother-ness?

It is a lot more relaxed in the MO and west coast world!

Not sure why there is such an atmosphere. Maybe because there is a fear things in the MO world are too relaxed. I do not set policy. I just try to negotiate the very best I can for my family.

BinahYeteirah

Thu, Dec 08 2011, 12:01 am

tikva18 wrote:

Fox wrote:

tikva18 wrote:

Tell me more about Chicago flat /a/'s, please? is that how Chicagoan's mangle the pronunciation of Chicago?

Ahhh!!! I'm becoming inured to it! I almost didn't hear his accent! Sad

I'm from Chicago, but I haven't lived there since I was 6 or so. He sounds totally normal to me. What

I guess I'm still a Chicagoan.