Opening bags and cans on Shabbos

chocolate moose

Sat, Nov 18 2006, 10:02 pm

At a shiur a lady mentioned you shouldn't open a pretzel bag on Shabbos, for example, take out a handful and then put the rest of the bag away.

She said it's making a kayli.

We also discussed opening a flip top can on Shabbos. In this day and age, I can't believe anyone would reuse it afterwards...in overnight camp we were taught to always open it, poured its contents into a cup, and then drank from the cup alone. So I don't see how opening a can is making a keyli, but I suppose different people do different things....

Anyway, I think the bag is 2 different inyonim - one is the opening of it, the other is the making a kayli part.

Anyone?

BrachaVHatzlocha

Sat, Nov 18 2006, 10:39 pm

From what I've learned, it's a problem to make a kaili.
if you need to open a new bag or box, you need to destroy it so as not to reuse it. (for example - a box of cereal or a bag of chips) You can pour out the contents into something else and discard the container.
The same with a can -- I try to open it only 1/2 way, pour out the contetns, and throw out the tin.
The issue is not reusing it, but when you take the cover off, or open the bag, you've made the tin or bag into a usable container.
I hope I"m being clear.

su7kids

Sun, Nov 19 2006, 2:49 am

BrachaVHatzlocha wrote:

The way I learned, by destroying it first, you're actually doing something that you're not supposed to do. Destroying.

When you open a can, you're opening it to take out the stuff that is in it. YOu're not opening it for the purpose of putting stuff in.

I strongly suggest you ask your LOR.

shalhevet

Sun, Nov 19 2006, 3:02 am

These things are definitely making a kli.

For example the can. It is all one material which is around the food. By opening it, you're turning it into a storage box which you can now take food out of (or put in). It's irrelevant if you are ever going to put anything else inside.
What I learnt was (assuming you haven't opened it before Shabbos, which is by far the best), with the can opener make a small opening in the bottom of the can (it is a good idea at this point to put it over a bowl or something so that your floor doesn't get drenched with juice etc Very Happy

)). Now turn the can over and open it regularly. It is not a kli b/c there is a hole in the bottom. Take out the food and put it in some other dish. Voila! One opened can and no kli!

Packets, bags etc. Again, the same story. If you make a nice opening you have a kli which you can put things into and take things out.
Tear it open, destroying the packet. Immediately put the contents into a different container, bag etc.

As someone mentioned you also have to be careful not to tear any writing or pictures because that is mochek = erasing.

There is no problem destroying something on Shabbos IF it is not for the purpose of creating something new (eg you can't tear down a building so as to have a place to build a new one) IF it's for something you need to get to on Shabbos (like the beigelah).

Of course, I am adding the disclaimer that everyone should ask their LOR.

Ribbie Danzinger

Sun, Nov 19 2006, 5:01 am

There is another problem with opening cans with a pull-top opener on Shabbat and that is that you are making a perfectly shaped opening. Just like cutting T. paper on the perforations is forbidden, so too is opening a preshaped cut.
This is also preventable by making a hole in the opening of the can with the method that mummyof6 mentioned in her post. However, the can must still NOT be opened in the regular way but with a can opener. Better to buy bottles for Shabbat (but remember to open the tops before Shabbat).
Opening cartons of drink may also be problematic for the same reasons.

Note: I have seen people opening pull-top cans and cartons on Shabbat and according to them, their Rav says it's o.k. So without wishing to sound repetitious...

...ask your rav.

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Nov 19 2006, 5:06 am

I learned that for a can, you should technically make a hole on the oher side of it so that there is no way that you can use it as a kli.

I learned that for food, you are allowed to rip things and then close them.

I believe that I also learned that we can rip things on words in order to use them for food. also not sure why, but thats what I learned.

mumoo

Sun, Nov 19 2006, 8:53 pm

su7kids wrote:

The way I learned, by destroying it first, you're actually doing something that you're not supposed to do. Destroying.

I think she means opening a cereal box by removing the entire top and sides, making it impossible to hold something. The way I learned the melacha of soteh applies to the purposeful destruction, not just to make it garbage.

Also I learned that opening a chip bag is not a problem as the bag is not choshuve (!) so boneh does not apply

Quote:

I believe that I also learned that we can rip things on words in order to use them for food. also not sure why, but thats what I learned.

you can destroy a bag for food, napkins, etc (for oneg) but don't rip the letters/words

Last edited by mumoo on Sun, Dec 31 2006, 2:31 am; edited 1 time in total

shanie5

Sun, Nov 19 2006, 10:02 pm

I never understood how an open can became a kli until one rav explained it this way:
you want to make tune and egg salad for shalosh seudos. you open the tuna, pour it out. then you peel the eggs, and what do you do with the shells? you condense your garbage and put the shells into the empty tuna can-presto-you now made use of the kli you created!!
so if I open a can on shabbos, I toss it straight into the garbage can so I prevent that problem.

Ribbie Danzinger

Mon, Nov 20 2006, 4:22 am

Shanie, I'm not sure that really solves the problem because even though you didn't USE the kli, you still MADE it into a kli. This is why you should make a hole in the can before you open the top.

Another method I heard was to only partially open the top of the can, in such a way that nobody would ever use it as a kli. This method may be good for, let's say olives, which can come out of a small opening.