Found empty package in son's laundry.

Chayalle

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 9:29 am

veganesther wrote:

okay. You admitted to your self and your son that he was molested as a youngster and now he is burdened with this unresolved zextual energy. A fourteen your old is an unacceptable outlet for his angst. You must teach him to abstain from intercourse with this child, He is guilty of perpetuating the wrong that was done to him.
I am sorry if this is harsh.
get him a therapist ASAP.

This. No matter that you see her as more mature, etc...you are making excuses. He should be made aware of the fact that there could be severe legal repercussions for this, if her parents found out and reported him.

Leesah

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 9:52 am

shalhevet wrote:

Leesah wrote:

I don't know about that. Are you saying if somebody says; "have yichud or I will kill you", the person must die? Lo nira li.

I think it depends - not all yichud is from the Torah. But some is.

Quote:

Anyway, I'd still like a makor for nida being arayus.

What are you asking? Arayus means forbidden s-xual relationships. Are you asking if it's chayav kareis? Or if it's yehareg ve'al yaavor? Nidda is a forbidden s-xual relationship (see the krias haTorah we read on YK at mincha, where it is listed with incest, adultery etc.) AFAIK it is yehareg ve'al yaavor for the man since he is active.
Maybe someone can move this discussion to a different thread, since I don't think it is helpful for the OP.

No, you're right, it's not helpful so I'll stop now. I'll ask my dh later about the gilui arayus thing, so that's all I have to say on the topic for now anyway.

OP - are you sure that he used the condom and didn't just find the package somewhere? I see them around all the time, maybe he thinks it's cool.

princessleah

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 10:00 am

I think you've gotten some good advice here, but I just want to add in one thing. I don't think scaring him about STD's is the way to go. First of all, condoms DO protect against STD's better than any other methods-- if you say abstinence protects, sure, but that means abstaining from ANYTHING. If you scare him enough, he may just think, why bother with the condom? And have unprotected s-x or other "stuff" without a condom where he'll think he's protected from disease and he's not.

not to mention the psychological ramifications of making s-x this scary disease-inducing encounter rather than focusing on it being a positive experience that should be experienced between two emotionally and physically mature consenting adults when they're both ready.

chani8

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 10:19 am

First of all I just want to say that this is the first time I've post anything 'real' or serious on imamother and your responses are so touching that I have tears in my eyes. Such caring, sensitive people. Thank you, and keep your thoughts coming, because it is helping me so much to get clarity on this.

I am getting clarity. I understand most of you think that this is serious and nothing I can ignore. Anyone think that I should mind my own business?

My son had Trauma Therapy and on the whole, he was in great shape afterwards, for many years. However, recently I have realized that he still identifies himself as having been abused, sort of stigmitized, scarred, different than others. So yes, therapy sounds like a priority. At least for me! LOL!

Well, I do want to find out the age of consent in Israel. Anyone know what it is?

I am terrified by the halachic ramifications. Please continue to battle this out and let me know the most lenient conclusion! I know this may sound outrageous, but if they aren't going to stop, what is my advice supposed to be, either stop or be cut off from your people, and if that doesn't work, then at least make her go to the mikva?

Our son is MO and his girlfriend is Mesorati (traditional but a non-halachic based lifestyle). My son stopped wearing tsitsis, but certainly wears a kippa, but he's an overall lazy kind of religious type, meaning as long as it's easy he'll do it. He is very kibud am and we have a close relationship. He is overall a very sensitive, good person, and it's not like he's partying and messing around. He likely planned this out (note the condom) and is being a sweet, nice guy, who sincerely cares about this girl. He worries about her and they are on the phone constantly, and she has depression issues which he tries to help her with.

chani8

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 10:35 am

Chayalle wrote:

veganesther wrote:

You are not off base here, because this was my first reaction and believe me, it hurt. I just went round and round with it and the truth is, there is no way to tell right now if this is an attraction due to her youthfulness and vulnerablity, or if it is more mutual and concentual. I've agonized about it. I told my husband that if this gets him in trouble with the law, it is his problem. When he first started meeting with her, I told him outright that a 14 yr old girl is not supposed to be having s-xual relations. That she may seem to be looking for relations, but she is really looking for love. I said whatever I could to encourage my son to take it easy. But this girl was posting s-xual stuff on her facebook, and provocotive photos on there as well, and it is seems to me that she was once s-xually abused herself, or has very little self-worth or bad role models in her life. I may still sound like I'm making excuses, and I may still be, but I can assure you this, my radar will always be on this boy. The s-xual assault websites say that if the two are withing two years of age, it isn't considered abuse. So for now, I am holding on to that for some comfort.

amother

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 10:54 am

I really like one of the responses that says about bringing him cake and a drink and have a casual talk.
I know its a hard conversation to have with children but it needs to be done. You want him to come to you if he has questions as opposed to getting info somewhere else.
Also I dont think you need to worry about his religious consequences. Its HIS problem not yours. I know its hard because you're religious but he is old enough to make his own decisions. It doesn't make him bad or good for choosing this, but I completly understand it is VERY HARD for parents.
My thoughts: at least BH he's using a condom!!! I think you should sit him down and have a chill talk with him saying you found this in his pocket and you're wandering whats going on. Tell him you love him and that if he has any questions he can feel comfortable talking to you about it. DONT tell him whats he's doing is a sin, he's obviously not at that level and I think it might just reinforce his behavior, especially if he was molested he might be angry at HaShem and thats his way of rebeling. Also isn't it a "healthy" way to get things out, I mean ch'vs he could also be molesting pp or actually raping but BH he's not doing any of the two. He's a teen and im assuming thats what they do when they're not religious.
Abstinence doesn't solve anything, at least BH BH he is using a condom but do talk to him about the risk of not using one, educate him about STDs and becoming pregnant ... of course all in a NON-JUDGMENTAL way but in a loving caring way. Make him feel confortable enought that if he has question he know he can come to you.
Im sorry you're going through that daven a lot and keep open communication/relationship with your son, thats the best way to keep him from running away/shutting down.

Tzippora

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 10:57 am

Also, legally he is not at risk in israel:

Israel
According to the Israeli Penal Code of 1977
the age of consent in Israel is 16 for any
form of s-xual relations. A special case
arises when a person between ages 14–16
had s-xual relations with an older partner;
in this case the older partner would be
exempt of criminal liability if three
conditions are met: The age difference
between the prtners was less than three
years, the younger partner gave consent
and the act was done out of "regular
friendly relations" and without the abuse of
power.

chani8

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 11:00 am

Tzippora wrote:

A great big hug to you for taking the time to look this up and post it for me. Tears of relief pouring down my face. Hug

That's one less worry.

Barbara

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 11:02 am

((HUGS))

According to this website

http://www.avert.org/age-of-consent.htm

the age of consent in Israel is between 14 and 16, depending upon the region. In any case, it is probably rare for a teenager to be prosecuted for statutory rape in connection with consensual zex with another teen close to his/her age, at least in the US. It usually happens when prosecutors are racist, when there is a large age difference, or when there may have been lack of consent, but its difficult to prove.

First things first. You're not the first Orthodox parent to find out that their child had premarital zex. It happens. And it may have nothing at all to do with his previous abuse.

IMNSHO, either you or your DH need to speak to your son. At the outset, make two things clear: (1) you weren't snooping, it was found doing laundry; and (2) you're not going to condemn or punish or yell at him. You love him, and you want to make sure that he is taking full responsibility for the very adult acts in which he is engaging.

Condoms are, AFAIK, halachically forbidden. Then again, so is premarital zex. You can talk to him about that, but also make clear that CONDOMS ARE THE ONLY WAY TO PROTECT HIMSELF AGAINST STDs. I confess, if it were my kid, I'd want him to use the condoms so that he'd live to make tshuva.

Talk about the need to protect himself and his partner EVERY time.

Talk about the emotional aspects of zex. That its not just feeling good.

Talk about the risks. No form of birth control is 100% effective. The condom is considered to be only moderately effective (probably because its often incorrectly used). Using the standard of 85% of zexually active couples becoming pregnant in a year without any birth control, this site claims that 15% will become pregnant with the use of a condom.

http://kidshealth.org/teen/relations......html

While that is certainly an improvement -- and you don't want your son to forgo that-- he needs to know that his girlfriend could become pregnant, and needs to think about that.

Also, listen. What are HIS thoughts and fears.

Good luck to you.

chani8

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 11:13 am

All the advice about how to set the tone and how to be chill and the importance of talking to my son and what would be confrontational, all makes a total sense.

So what is my goal in talking to him. If he is using a condom and he is being a nice guy, and I've already told him that I don't think his 14yr old girlfriend should be having relations, and I'm told him about STDs and pregnancies, before all this, what am I supposed to say? What should be my message. That I know what he is doing and if he has any questions, he can ask me?? Yuck. Should I buy him a book on relations ed? If so, tell me a title in hebrew of one that teaches values and not how to have backside relations or legitimize homosexuality the way the english books do, because believe me, I already spent hours on amazon trying to find a book but anyway the english would be too difficult for him.

Should I be trying to limit his time with her, put the breaks on, punish, control, or just scream into my pillow??

I've tried giving him the "she's below you" or "she's not religious enough" or "she has so many emotional problems, don't be her therapist" in little doses here and there.

But he seems intent on doing what he wants and thinks he's an adult. They both think they are adults, are are both homebodies, and every now and then their big date is to go sit at a coffee shop, and sit and have a pastry together. Too kids acting like an old married couple. In some ways I feel some safety in this, as he could be acting out all over the place and partying, etc. Can I allow myself some solace in this?

Stayci

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 11:14 am

Barbara wrote:

Amazing advice!

grace413

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 12:48 pm

chani8 wrote:

I am terrified by the halachic ramifications. Please continue to battle this out and let me know the most lenient conclusion! I know this may sound outrageous, but if they aren't going to stop, what is my advice supposed to be, either stop or be cut off from your people, and if that doesn't work, then at least make her go to the mikva?

Don't even worry about this. That's why there is tshuva. Please don't tell DS that he'll be chayav kareit - then he'll have no incentive to do any mitzvot. You may want to mention that while it's an aveira, he can always stop and do tshuva. I don't think you'll find any mikvaot where they'll let in a 14 year old.

Barbara

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 1:05 pm

chani8 wrote:

Please don't tell your son that this girl, or any girl, is "below" him.

How would you feel if it were her mother on this board saying that about your son? She has problems? You've said that your son has problems as well. She's not religious? Unless you're going to suggest that having zex with a 14 year old girl to whom you're not married is something that mainstream religious people do, you don't have much to stand on here, either.

And finally, this girl could, potentially, wind up being your DIL, someday.

As to the purpose of talking to him, that's what parents do. We don't tell our kids something once, and figure that it stuck, that's that. We repeat it, with different nuances for different situations.

I don't know what your son feels. He may be conflicted. Trapped. Sorry. Scared. And he has to know that he can talk about that with you.

Tamiri

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 1:51 pm

Posters gave some really good advice, and you sound like a really caring parent. Kudos for not getting hysterical.
I would suggest, since you know the girl, to talk to BOTH of them at the same time. Because both of them need to take equal responsibility. While I don't believe in giving a gushpanka for this kind of thing, if they are already doing it, they need to know that a condom is not a fail-proof method for anything least of all preventing a pregnancy. The girl needs to get on the pill, even if it means YOU taking her to the doctor to get a prescription.
Also, I think the consequences of zex, namely: babies and STDs needs to be discussed. These children are playing with fire and they need to know it.
My opinion.

chani8

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 1:58 pm

Barbara, I agree with you. You've given great advice. Thank you.

All of you have given great advice and lots of support. But if you were really great, you'd do this for me!! LOL

How's this for clarity:

DS, I found this in your dirty laundy. I just want you to know that I love you, but I don't approve of you being s-xually active, esp with a 14 yr old. I think she is much to young for this behavior. I am glad you are using a condom as it shows some sense of responsibility to both you and her. Just understand that it can take only one mistake, one time of forgetting to use it, to cause a pregnancy. Also, there are halachot about it being usser to be with a woman who is nidda, who has had her period and not gone to the mikva. That is why we wait until marriage, when a young lady has had a chance to learn the mitva of TH and go to the mikva. I think you are making a mistake in a lot of ways by being s-xually active and I wish you would stop until you meet your bashert and get married. Now that you know it is sweet and nice and fun, make it holy and special by saving yourself for the woman you want to spend your life with.

Anyone want to critique this?

ElTam

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 2:13 pm

Even if she were 16, this is not in either of their best interests. 16 may be physically ready (14 may be physically ready), but 16 and/or 14 are not emotionally ready even if there are no legal or health ramifications.

Personally, I would focus on the fact that you are concerned for him future well-being and happiness and while this physically feel great, it's not emotionally good for him or for the girl. I would NOT bash the girl in any way, shape or form.

Hatzlacha. I hope this all has a good outcome.