Found empty package in son's laundry.

imasinger

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 2:36 pm

Barbara's last post was great.

I wonder -- are many of his friends active? (Kids tend to brag more than do, but even so...)

If it is all about the girl, then, even though she is younger, there is a flavor of what happened in his past. Is it possible that she told him what she wanted him to do, just as those people did when he was younger? Is it possible that in spite of the therapy, he didn't make the connection because, after all, it was a younger girl, and after all, he may have had these strong feelings. And after all, perhaps he would be proving his masculinity, which must have felt to be one of the things that was violated before.

I don't know how self-aware he is, or how much of this would resonate, but it seems worth exploring.

Please be sure to praise him for being responsible enough to use a condom. (ETA: just reread your post, and see that you did so). On some level, the fact that you found it may be a cry for help, or at least for involvement. While he might profess to be humiliated or angry to have to discuss it, I bet on some level, he really wants to.

amother

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 3:04 pm

Op, I really feel for you. Lots of people here have giving great advice, and I really hope that you get through this challange quickly.

If you had stam found a package in the laundry, and your son had grown up with out having been molested, I would say that it is important to talk to him about relations, and their ramifications in a nice loving and caring way, and maybe not make a huge deal about it.

since you say that your son was molested, and possibly the girl was as well, I think it takes on a whole new level. I really believe that you should get a therapist involved. I think that you and dh need to first meet alone with the therapist and see what they say.

If he had not suffered previously, then this might be typical teenage behaviour in their circles, but it sounds like he is doing this because he was molested, and being with a younger girl, no matter how physicaly mature she is, is a way of acting out on the molestation.
think about it, he feels in control because she is younger, and she feels comforted because he is older and more of a father figure.

please talk to a therapist for everyones sake.

gila-rina

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 3:05 pm

chani8 wrote:

How's this for clarity:

DS, I found this in your dirty laundy. I just want you to know that I love you, but I don't approve of you being s-xually active, ~~esp with a 14 yr old. I think she is much to young for this behavior~~. ~~I am glad you are~~ using a condom ~~as it~~ shows some sense of responsibility to both ~~you and her~~. Just understand that it can take only one mistake, one time of forgetting to use it, to cause a pregnancy. Also, there are halachot about it being usser to be with a woman who is nidda, who has had her period and not gone to the mikva. That is why we wait until marriage, when a young lady has had a chance to learn the mitva of TH and go to the mikva. ~~I think you are making a mistake in a lot of ways by being s-xually active and~~ I wish you would stop until you meet your bashert and get married. [s]Now that you know it is sweet and nice and fun, make it holy and special by saving yourself for the woman you want to spend your life with. [/s]

Anyone want to critique this?

[s]
after initially telling him about the find, I would ask him for his input on it.

amother

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 3:34 pm

Firstly I would tell him at a time when you think is good for him to shmooze, ask him-I wanted to talk to you for a few minutes, do you have time now? make sure it is a time when he is settled and willing to shmooze.
THen like you said start with love and acceptance.
I would just say I love you very much NO MATTER WHAT and I am not coming to tell you what to do, you are a big boy and have made very smart decisions in your life. I just want to share with you some of my thoughts and experiences and maybe you will have a bit of a clearer picture of reality to then go on and make the responsible decisions I trust you to make.

I just think this is more empowering him adn he would listen rather than defend. also I would leave frumkeit out of it especially if you said he wouldnt care. even if he would, it is not about frumkeit, it is about morals.

Then I would say, as I was doing the laundry and emptying pockets like I always do I found a condemn wrapper. Dear son I would never snoop on you that is against my principles, but I felt it is a conversation I am ready to have with you.
people use condoms to have protected s-x. that is a very good thing, because unfortunately there are so many zexually tramsmitted deseases. people also use it as a birth control. however there is still a 15% chance of getting pregnant with a condom. so these are the facts I wanted to make sure we have clear. if one was to get a girl pregnant there is no turning back. it is his child as well (would not say your child). that means real life. means financial and emotional support to a baby and the baby's mother.
another side point, when having s-x with a girl below the age of __, it can lead to legal troubles as well, underage girls.

g-d gave us s-x to enjoy. it is NOT a bad thing. it is actually a pleasurable experience and meant to be so. but everything needs to be at the rite time and place. when having s-x with a girl it is an expression of love and care. one has to give to the girl emotioanlly as well and then the physical is even that much better. when we are young it is hard not to use someone for our own pleasure. it is hard to be in rite mindset. and we may misuse this wonderful pleasure. (k here just blabbing, but find out nice ways to talk about s-x and why we have it to get close and is sign of ultimate closeness and when have that can gt close to g-d......)

and I would mention that I am not assuming you have had any relaations with anyone. feel free to talk about it if you'd like. I am here if you have any questions. I am happy to pay for you to speak to someone confidential. it is a NORMAL thing for teenage boys to go throut. it is a natural and HEALTHY sign tht a man's hormones are in place. we just need to learn how to go about handling our feelings and stuff......
reassure him that he is normal! and that the lines of communication are open even for topics like this.

best of luck. easier said than done!
daven before you talk to him Smile

amother

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 3:34 pm

amother

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 5:39 pm

Amother for obvious reasons. Am I the only BT here? 14 is very normal, if by 16 my friends weren't having these kind of relationships then they were considered strange. In Israel it's even younger, I know this as a fact.

I think the attention has to be focused on what kind of life he wants religiously. To steer him to value the holiness of a kosher marriage one day and how detrimental it will be if he has a whole baggage of previous girlfriends to compare his wife to. Do you know of a kiruv Rabbi or organization in your area? They might have more appropriate mixed events with girls that would rather wait. Otherwise if you try to discourage this girl, being a teen, he'll probably want to be with her more.

amother

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 8:00 pm

secular, frum, otd or not, I think you are all missing the big picture.
At least one if not two of the people involved was previously molested. I really really think there is a psychological issue going on here on both sides and this needs intervention. This is not typical teenage boy and girl behavior given the situation.

they are more then likely acting on previous forms of abuse that they suffered.

I do not think this is normal teen behaviour in this situation. It may be if you grew up in a secular society where this type of behavior is common.

Also, I did not grow up frum, and it was not common at ALL in my middle school or even that common in my secular public high school that teens were having relations that young. Maybe by 16 or 17 or maybe I am just naive to it, but I really do not think it was as common as you are all saying.

Yocheved84

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 8:07 pm

To above amother: I agree with you that something must be going on with the girl--low self-esteem, self-worth, etc., as 14 is a bit young. 15? Yeah, but maybe not so much. But my point is that there might not be relations going on at all. It might be experimentation (self-experimentation--trying to be tznua here, I hope what I'm saying is coming across). Before anyone jumps to conclusions, I think that OP's husband should talk with the son in a VERY, VERY chill, laid back way. If the DH comes across as agressive or accusatory, it will make the son sneak around. But if he says "Hey, everything ok?" maybe it'll come off better.

But amother, I agree with you 1000 percent.

Oy, I feel for the girl. I feel for the confused young man. And OP, hugs. This must be so tough for you. I hope at least some of your pain has been lifted by sharing and getting some advice. We're all here for you.

amother

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 10:24 pm

I'm sorry to dissent a little here, but while I agree that it's really smart for him to be using a condom, it's also really assur. First of all, I think it would be really problematic for you to explicitly tell him that it's a good idea. Secondly, maybe they can both be tested for STDs and get on two halachically permissible methods of birth control and then do without the condoms?

Along similar lines, I'm sure that if you got in touch with a rav or rebbitzen and told them that this girl is currently having intercourse, they would be able to get her to a mikvah.

If these two things are taken care of, then halachically they are pretty fine. If not, I'm not an expert but I think that gets kareis, and while I agree that the fine details are not relevant to this thread it's definitely not something that should be ignored.

wifey

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 10:50 pm

amother wrote:

This!!!