Chinuch issues with making Aliya

rydys

Thu, Apr 14 2005, 1:23 pm

This is the exact reason my husband and I decided not to move. We believe (after having long discussions with our rov) that not every boy is destined to sit in kollel forever. For those boys who are not, we feel they should have the opportunity to decide what they are interested in and get an education that will allow them to become who they are as individuals. The same is true for the girls. Not every girl is meant to be a teacher or full time mother.

We have the same issues here in America, but in Eretz Yisroel they are 100 times worse. Anyone who does not fit the mold exactly is looked down upon and even shunned sometimes.

roza

Tue, Apr 19 2005, 9:38 pm

interesting how they asked Gedolim for an opinion and they said to talk to mevinim, ppl who specialize in chinuch.
Gedolim give opinions on Torah . you don't ask Gedolim a finance question for example.

anyway the article is very depressing. lot's of people complain about the charedi system in israel. why would parent want the children to integrate in such a system, where, for example, good jews who are not in kolel are considered second class? where ppl can't have their own opinion and have to blindly follow what ever they are told to do? this is an invitation for rebelling.

I know ppl who live or want to live in 'mix' (different degrees on frumkait) neighborhood, so that their children won't feel like they are forced to be one particular way. why a need 'to intergrate' in dafka charedi society as they advise in the article?
children can rebel anywhere but especially in place where the child will be kicked out of school for playing soccer.

also:
russian jews for example, after trying for 10-20 years to blend in with israelies, just stoped at the level where they can have work relationship with most israelies (they are succesful and good citizens) and remain same russian speaking jews and prefer to be together with their own. same I am sure with american olim, after years and years in israel they simply don't become israelies. What

Motek

Tue, Apr 19 2005, 9:56 pm

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why would parent want the children to integrate in such a system

1) because they believe in that system
2) bec. they think that the advantages of living in the Holy Land supersede all problems

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this is an invitation for rebelling.

only if the parents don't quite believe in the system and express their ambivalence to their kids

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I know ppl who live or want to live in 'mix' (different degrees on frumkait) neighborhood, so that their children won't feel like they are forced to be one particular way

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why a need 'to intergrate' in dafka charedi society as they advise in the article?

okay, so you have to understand that the article is in a magazine geared for chareidim! They WANT their kids in chareidi society and to acclimate there!

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children can rebel anywhere but especially in place where the child will be kicked out of school for playing soccer.

this happens when parents send mixed messages to their children and don't work along with the very system they put their kids in!

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same I am sure with american olim, after years and years in israel they simply don't become israelies. What

it depends on their goals
many american olim, who make aliya with young kids, as the people in the article advise, end up raising israelis!

the very big problem with american kids dropping out in israel are with the kids who were either too old when they got there, to properly integrate, or with kids from homes that deliberately tried to maintain american values while living in israel. This just doesn't work.

roza

Tue, Apr 19 2005, 10:04 pm

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only if the parents don't quite believe in the system and express their ambivalence to their kids

even when they say to children that there are other rabbonim who allow to do so and so- they make their children rebel by this?

besides - what system? there is Torah, if it's in halacha boundaries then what's a problem? they don't tell kids to go against Torah.

roza

Tue, Apr 19 2005, 10:12 pm

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the very big problem with american kids dropping out in israel are with the kids who were either too old when they got there, to properly integrate, or with kids from homes that deliberately tried to maintain american values while living in israel. This just doesn't work.

because they need to let american kids, who came to israel old enough, to keep their 'american values'. I am sure those values are not against halacha. just like we russians keep what ever good we got from our upbringing.

my main point is: that instead of blaming parents, they should blame the 'system'.
I believe that american frum jews (parents and kids) can live in israel and be frum IF they will find a balance, and not to try to go to extreem and break.
again we need an opinion from other [frum] point of view.

Motek

Tue, Apr 19 2005, 10:43 pm

listen, I'm not arguing with you, I'm just explaining why the people quoted in the article say what they say

the drop-out rate among children of american olim is frightening and each group, chareidim, modern orthodox, etc. have to figure out what they can do about it

this article is about what chareidim can do about it

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even when they say to children that there are other rabbonim who allow to do so and so- they make their children rebel by this?

first of all, let's not say "they make their children rebel" because people have bechira

the point is, a change in culture and mentality is a challenge, and how should it be handled

one piece of advice is don't take kids older than 6-7 on aliya!

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besides - what system? there is Torah, if it's in halacha boundaries then what's a problem? they don't tell kids to go against Torah.

the chareidi school and societal system that chareidi parents want their chareidi kids to belong to

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because they need to let american kids, who came to israel old enough, to keep their 'american values' as you call them. I am sure those values are not against halacha. just like we russians keep what ever good we got from our upbringing.

again, I'm not trying to argue
I'm just explaining that people in the know, people who have tried making american-style schools for american olim, have failed!
the american kids who don't integrate are the ones at risk of dropping out of yiddishkeit because by not integrating into israeli society, by not adopting an israeli mentality like their israeli classmates, they are neither here nor there, they don't have a place, they are lost Sad

this is not MY opinion
the article quotes people with lots of experience
after reading the article, I spoke with my cousin who lives in Israel and a friend who lives in Israel

both absolutely agree with the article!

roza

Tue, Apr 19 2005, 11:22 pm

I don't argue with you either, I am just commenting on the article. What

also I did not say to make yeshivah for american kids, but just respect them in what ever school they are. like here in states- ppl are from different backgrounds in one school and everyone is happy. if they need help - help them , but to kick them out of school or make them feel second class ( this is from the article) What

roza

Wed, Apr 20 2005, 1:41 am

there is a simmilar problem here in states:

this is just one example of this problem:

http://wolfishmusings.blogspot......html

one of the comments there:

Quote:

In 1951, R. Eliyahu Dessler (Mikhtav Me'Eliyahu, V. 3, pgs 355-60) wrote a
sharply worded teshuva regarding the inadvisability of establishing a
teacher's seminary which would issue academic degrees. Within that teshuva,
he wrote the following:

"...the philosophy of Yeshiva education is directed towards one objective
alone, to nurture Gedolei Torah and Yirei Shamayim in tandem. For this
reason university was prohibited to their students, because [the Gedolim]
could not see how to nurture Gedolei Torah unless they directed all
education towards Torah exclusively. However, do not think that they did not
know in advance that through this approach, G-d forbid, many (students) will
be ruined, since they will be unable to survive such an extreme position,
and [therefore] separate from the path of Torah. However, this is the price
that must be paid for [producing] Gedolei Torah."

"Of course, [the Gedolim] must keep watch to do what is possible to maintain
those who cannot be Bnei Torah, but not through means that will influence
those who remain [in Yeshiva]. For example, those who must leave... [should
become] storekeepers or other jobs that are not professional careers, which
require no [educational] preparation and do not attract the [other] students."

------

In other words: they know they are sacrificing people and chose to do it anyway.

parents should know this before putting their kids into a 'system' in israel

Motek

Wed, Apr 20 2005, 6:08 pm

For the record, it's not just chareidim in Israel that are so self-contained, for Israeli society is very polarized. Americans, in general, are more easy-going, but even in America, I don't think we all mix together as one big happy family!

Schools in America have become much more polarized. In the 50's-70's, the people who attended yeshiva and Bais Yaakov in New York, were from all walks of life, ranging from very chasidish to modern. Today, you don't have nearly as much diversity in the schools because, thanks to our population growth (kein yirbu), different groups opened their own schools where they can promote their own values. Is this a bad thing or a good thing? The answer is, both!

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parents should know this before putting their kids into a 'system' in israel

absolutely! And that's why the article was written. My friend told me that before she made aliya, they were warned of all the pitfalls, and she was very grateful to be informed. She was almost convinced that their pilot trip wouldn't be successful, but they did make a go of it, and thanks to her and her husband's smart chinuch efforts, her children are doing well. Most importantly, even though she would allow her children to do many more things than her kids' school deem proper, she fully supports the school's rules. She makes it clear to her children that the school rules are to be respected.

She also chose to live in an area where the chareidi system pressure, though there, is a weensy bit less intense than other places.

Rivk

Wed, Apr 20 2005, 8:36 pm

First of all, I think the reason why the article "blames" parents instead of the system is because it's a lot easier to inform parents than to change the system. Also, as Motek said, Israelis in general are much less tolerant - which can be a wonderful thing when used properly. I think that Americans are too tolerant. The attitude of "Live and let live" is really seeping into our frum society. But that's really off the topic!

Motek

Wed, Apr 20 2005, 9:02 pm

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I think the reason why the article "blames" parents instead of the system is because it's a lot easier to inform parents than to change the system.

the article doesn't blame anyone!

the point of the article is to INFORM people of the pitfalls involved in making aliya with children, so parents can make an INFORMED decision

the article was not about the israeli system, not about tolerance or the lack of it, but simply about the REALITIES OF ISRAELI LIFE and what Americans will need to contend with

it's fine if roza or anybody would like to see the system changed, but the point is, RIGHT NOW, if a family wants to make aliya, what do they need to know to make it work successfully

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I think that Americans are too tolerant. The attitude of "Live and let live" is really seeping into our frum society. But that's really off the topic!

I agree!

here's a thread on the topic:

http://www.imamother.com/forum.....rance

avigayil

Thu, May 05 2005, 11:54 pm

I read this article and realized it is a good thing to stay here.
As Americans, we really are 'individualistic'.
I 1also don't think the whole kollel system is for everyone, but that is another story.
I am glad that this article was written, but I do wish that the charedi system would diversify a bit. Not just for the good of Americans, but for everyone. Not every man is meant to learn Torah full-time for all his life. Not every woman wants to be a teacher either.

yehudis

Fri, May 06 2005, 4:35 pm

Hi everybody!

Hope everybody had a wonderful Pesach. I'm still catching up on the threads.

Thanks Motek for posting this article. It's kind of depressing, but I guess you need to know all of this if you are thinking of aliya. My husband has always wanted to move to Israel, but I am really concerned about the polarization and having to fit it and the educational system. I am not even American, and in many ways, I like the Israeli life more than American life -- the way everybody lives together, people are close, they help each other. Many things in Israel remind me of my childhood. Like when a girl comes over to me and asks to help her cross the street. I love it -- we used to do this too when we were little. There is much more of a sense of a community and people being responsible for one another and for all the children, even those who are not theirs.

OTOH, I remember my school in Ukraine, which I hated, and I wouldn't want my children to go to a school like that. Not that I really know that much about Israeli schools, but from what I understand, the teachers are not as concerned about individuality and children's feelings as in America. In Ukraine, a teacher wouldn't think twice about embarrassing a child in front of the whole class, and other children were also very cruel. If Israeli schools are at least somewhat like that, I wouldn't want my children to have such experiences.

Anyway, I guess I am just thinking out loud, so to speak.