Chinuch issues with making Aliya

Imaonwheels

Tue, May 13 2008, 11:37 pm

The 2 most fanatic group of fans I have ever met have the same colors and act the same way - Pittsburgh Steelers and Beitar Yerushalayim. These people are true believers.

When my son learned in a cheder in Y-m they played cadur regel (and call it that) until 9th grade. The cheder was run like a very tight ship and I am glad they realized that the boys needed the release. It is the professional sports thing that they really want to avoid. If some go overboard it is certainly better than letting it take the kids over.

My son who is DL wanted yeshiva tichonit. The one he wanted was scratched off the list because while there I heard the boys saying they were going to Y-m to the stadium for a pro league game. Alone. 13 year olds.

And as a side issues. Professional sports in Israel are one of the major causes of chillul Shabbos as well. Somew of those boys smiling on the soccer cards are nice traditional boys who had to give up Shabbos to make it in the big time.

Imaonwheels

Tue, May 13 2008, 11:56 pm

I plowed through the whole article.With all of respect to the rabbis mentioned, this is a disgusting piece of work.

That's not at all respectful actually. I think it gave a realistic picture of life in Israel and the pitfalls of making aliya FOR ITS INTENDED AUDIENCE and you, imaonwheels, are not the intended audience.

Why am I not? Because I disagree? Or because He is not writing to all Anglo charedim? Is he writing only to those who like their American culture?

That was nicer than I could of said, I have a richer vocabulary due to my background but lies are not appropriate for any audience. This is an Aguda paper for the American Chareidi. They sell to all kinds of chareidim and it was presented for discussion here to all kinds of chareidim. Most uninpacted Chareidi communities are not like that. Beitar, Kiryat Sefer, certain neighborhoods in Y-m and Bnai Brak are impacted. You want to be chareidi in Israel but not like that? Move to Rechovot, Ashdod, and many other cities that have strong chareidi communities.

There was a follow-up in subsequent issues and there were letters printed that took the author to task, so dissent is possible.

Quote:
We have stressed to our children that the game is ok if played for fun, which my kids did in and out of cheder.

that doesn't help the parents who made aliya whose kids' rebbis said it is avoda zara and it doesn't help the children who are not allowed to play ball

Yes it does help them. It shows them the truth is that only a certain very narrow segment of the charedi public does not let their kids play ball. Until recently my dd lived in Beis Yisroel. Erev Shabbos they would play soccer on the street with 3 little boys wearing knee britches and long curly peyos.

Quote:
G-d forbid your dd may have to marry a working boy or -gasp- a Sefardi.

My first meeting of this concept was when I was in maon olim. I was at the wedding of an American boy with a Parsi girl. The old woman from NY standing next to me said, "Where I come from this is a mixed marriage". My ex's American yeshivish new wife is shaking in her boots because my ex has been too cool about his older children marrying sefardim. It is in many elite Ashkenazim everywhere in the Jewish world unfortunately. In Israel more than 30% of marriages are between Ashkenazim and Sefardim.

American yeshivishe people marry sefardim. It's the Israeli chareidim who don't.

I hate these cut and paste posts.

That he is inaccurate does not change with intended audience. And if his intended audience is only that very small segment of charedim who will insist on putting their kids in the strictest cheder say so. Something like if you live in a yeshivish lite community in the US and have opened your house, then don't think you can easily just pick up your kids and move to Beitar or Kiryat Sefer with no problems. That is true.

Tamiri

Wed, May 14 2008, 1:00 am

Motek wrote:

amother wrote:

I think tha tif one is modern they are more likely to succeed in aliyah since the mizrachi groups are not nearly as judgemental and there is not need to conform to that right-winged mold

That's a negative way of putting it. You could just as well have said that the chareidi system has much higher standards and in the mizrachi system anything goes ...

Maybe it's because the Mizrahi circles socialize more, and are more open about what is going on in their families?
Maybe because the upbringing is more Israeli-focused, even in the schools?
Maybe it's because going to Israel is done by more Mizrahi families in general (wealthier? more dedicated?) so that Israel is always there in their lives.

Who knows.

Imaonwheels

Wed, May 14 2008, 1:56 am

In Mizrachi circles not 'everything goes', but there is less emphasis on the conflicts between Torah and general (in reality non Jewish) culture. In the last 16 years my yishuv went through a tremendous cross fertilization with charedim and Torani living together. It was obvious to the young people who grew up in mamad that there were many things that they never even considered whether the Torah had an opinion. Your guide was what your family or those around you did. And if your community or family was not very learned then mistakes were compounded. So I will hear people my age say to a newlywed, yeah things were different then.

Because the difference between Mizrachi and Aguda was a political difference in Europe (all of the founders of Mizrachi would be classified charedi or super charedi today) and the halachic differences originated with those political differences, I expect them to all but disappear at some point. The Aguda will stop neglecting EY so they can be different than the Mizrachi and the DL have already become more careful in halacha and have stopped in many ways distancing themselves from chareidim. The saying one Mizrachi leader once said, that we have more in common with the frei than the chareidim is no longer true here. And I know Polishe and Hungarishe chaseedim living on yishuvim. Complete with bekeshe and streimel.

ora_43

Wed, May 14 2008, 6:26 am

I thought much of this article was great. Like:

Quote:

“When someone goes to Russia or to Africa,” she comments, “he expects to encounter a different culture. But for some reason, people think that when they come to Eretz Yisroel, it won’t be that way.When they get here, they can be very surprised.”

YES. I really really really do not understand why so many Americans I meet treat Israel like eastern Brooklyn. They don't learn Hebrew. They don't get any kind of professional training here. They live in American enclaves, buy American products, and talk about how great American products, lifestyle, mentality, etc is... then they're shocked when it's hard to find a job and the kids want to live in chul. Boker tov, as they say.

I think the Americans who come here with no plans to learn the language or fit in are in the minority--but it's a big enough minority that it's good to see an article pointing out the pitfalls of that approach.

I also agreed that conflicts between home and school are a HUGE risk for "off the derech" kids, although I don't think that's specifically an American-immigrants-in-Israel issue. Every community and school has its standards, in America and here.

Why I'm criticizing the article:
-Way too much importance attributed to age. I know many families who had a successful aliyah with kids ages 9-18, and many that didn't with younger children. The difference, IMO, is in the willingness to adjust to Israeli society and the strength of the child and the family, not the age.

Of course it might be ill advised to bring a high school student to Israel for practical reasons (ex. 11th graders should just wait it out and make aliyah alone after graduation), but in general I don't think bringing teens is the huge risk they say it is here.

-The extreme portrayal of Israeli hareidi society. Beitar and Meah Shearim aren't the only hareidi communities here. There are communities where kids play soccer and men work.

-The advice seems to be to give up all trace of American-ness and do whatever the Israeli school says. In my experience, that's not necessary. In fact, I think attempting to make an older child Israeli would be more likely to push him/her away. The families I know that successfully made aliyah with older children live in Efrat, Ramat Beit Shemesh, Beit Shemesh, and other areas with a relatively large Anglo population. It makes it much easier for the kids to make friends, IMO.

-It doesn't talk about "off the derech" kids in America or otd Israeli kids in Israel. While it's impossible to know for sure, I think a lot of the kids I've met who are/were 'off the derech" here would have had the same issues in the states. The main factors were a bad family situation, parents who didn't keep the level of mitzva observance that they/the schools were teaching, and similar things.

-Ridiculous use of made-up statistics. The worst example was here:

Quote:

Rabbi Oratz estimates that between ten and twenty-percent of children who make aliya in their teenage years end up going off the derech, meaning that a family that moves with three children in their teens
(not an uncommon scenario) has a forty percent chance of one of their children abandoning Yiddishkeit.

Even if 10-20% is accurate, even if we're talking about kids who would have been religious in America (which I doubt), it is absurd to say "ten percent go off the derech, therefore your kids' chance is X." Leaving Torah observance isn't a random thing that could happen equally easily to any child and any family.

ChossidMom

Thu, May 15 2008, 7:58 am

chavamom wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

Can we put this myth to rest once and for all?...
No one sees anything wrong in boys playing any kind of ball games, as long as you don't actually call it kadur regel (football).

Maybe where you live, but in Kiryat Sefer it was "assur" (kicking that ball around) and the kids used to come to Matityahu to kick their ball where there was no "cherem". It lead to a LOT of resentment on the part of moshavniks who were treated as "not so frum" b/c rebbis would bring the kids over to the moshav to play to avoid the cherem.

I just noticed your post Chavamom.
Interestingly enough, as time goes on, more and more things have become "ok" in Kiryat Sefer. Now, my street is full of kids playing soccer. There are also tons of kids (boys AND girls) on roller blades. Years ago this wasn't so.

But I do hear what you're saying about going over to the moshav for different purposes. BTW, I personally know at least 2 Israeli families (!!!) who have moved from Kiryat Sefer to Moshav Matityahu in the last couple of years. Interesting... My husband (Israeli) is still kicking me around the block that I insisted on moving here and not to the moshave 13 years ago! He says I would be so happy there. Oh well. 20/20 hindsight.

Imaonwheels

Fri, May 16 2008, 1:53 am

Ora

The reason why we need Eastern Brooklyn is to maintain our separation with those who have a different hashkafa than us. Some extreme Jews wanted to replace Jewishness with Israeliness so in reaction to them we will asur or denigrate anything Israeli. Some extreme Jews forbid Jews to manage their own affairs in EY so they turned the govt of Israel into m'ein malchut shamayim.

I have written before on how some charedim wear there not becoming Israeli and haviong their kids overseas as badges of honor to prove that they are too frum for that. Not impressed.

Don't give up those things you think are beneficial in your life as a good yiras shamayim Jew that you brought with you. But don't have any expectation that everyone already here will immediately "See the light". In fact, I for one will check it long and hard. My kids learn or learned in Chabad, where many of the counselors and educators are Anglo. I see the difference between those chedorim that have American trained hanhala or shluchim and Toras Emes in Y-m where the Yerushalmim stay firmly in control. Neither are perfect but after many hard lessons I moved my son to Toras Emes. And they kicked his backside off on the soccer field.