Tipat Chalav= nuts!

Ruchel

Thu, Jun 14 2012, 10:43 am

amother wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

amother wrote:

G-d bless America! Freedom of religion, freedom of choice, freedom to not tolerate abuse of any kind by anyone.
"You get what you pay for, cheap and free are worth exactly that, or less."

I'm sure all the people in America who can't afford health care are feeling grateful that they've been spared from the occasional rotten nurse they might have encountered in a free system Rolling Eyes

Health care is better in America than anywhere else in the world. How many botched up and sick people come from all over to America for health care? When health care is cheap or free, it is never as good as when it is being paid for, whether by the government via taxes or by private individuals or corporations.

Yes, for those who can afford...

ora_43

Thu, Jun 14 2012, 10:54 am

amother wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

amother wrote:

G-d bless America! Freedom of religion, freedom of choice, freedom to not tolerate abuse of any kind by anyone.
"You get what you pay for, cheap and free are worth exactly that, or less."

There are people who come to every advanced country for medical care. Also in Israel there are people who come from various countries to doctors who are experts in their fields - including some people from America.

I really don't get your agenda. So you prefer private insurance. Great. But what on earth could you have against people having other options?

ora_43

Thu, Jun 14 2012, 10:57 am

m in Israel wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

amother wrote:

G-d bless America! Freedom of religion, freedom of choice, freedom to not tolerate abuse of any kind by anyone.
"You get what you pay for, cheap and free are worth exactly that, or less."

Where do you live that you have free health care? Here in Israel we have mandatory health care, but certainly not free. We are charged premiums through the "mas briut" collected by Bituach L'eumi. The U.S. actually does have free health care for low income families (actually, nothing is free -- I mean paid for by other people's taxes rather than your own) called Medicaid. They also have low cost insurance for children through the individual state's department of health (S-Chip), and many states offer family plans as well (such as NY's "family health plus").

There are people in the U.S. who cannot afford insurance (mostly middle class -- making too much for the free programs, but not enough to buy private insurance), but there are people in Israel who struggle to make their payments, too. If you don't pay your mas briut, you will loose your insurance coverage here, too.

Notice I didn't say I have a free system. I was referring to amother's claim that "cheap and free" are worthless. I doubt many people who can't afford healthcare would turn down free coverage.

But if we're on the topic, you should know that when most people say "free healthcare" regarding any country, they mean taxpayer-supported healthcare. It's just easier to say.

chavamom

Thu, Jun 14 2012, 11:07 am

m in Israel wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

amother wrote:

G-d bless America! Freedom of religion, freedom of choice, freedom to not tolerate abuse of any kind by anyone.
"You get what you pay for, cheap and free are worth exactly that, or less."

Things might be different in NY (I believe they have more state funded medical coverage for low-income). But you are mistaken about just being "low income" qualifying you for Medicaid. It covers the children, yes. But unless you are pregnant or disabled - rarely. I think this is a common misperception that the poor have coverage as a social benefit.

chavamom

Thu, Jun 14 2012, 11:09 am

ora_43 wrote:

m in Israel wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

amother wrote:

G-d bless America! Freedom of religion, freedom of choice, freedom to not tolerate abuse of any kind by anyone.
"You get what you pay for, cheap and free are worth exactly that, or less."

Just as we say "free public education" or a "free library". Those are "free" either but we sure think of them as a given.

chaylizi

Thu, Jun 14 2012, 11:20 am

Ariellush wrote:

m in Israel wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

amother wrote:

G-d bless America! Freedom of religion, freedom of choice, freedom to not tolerate abuse of any kind by anyone.
"You get what you pay for, cheap and free are worth exactly that, or less."

Old Wikipedia would be a good source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N.....ealth

I would like to share the following link as well:
http://www.thedailybell.com/33.....ldren

Also, I would beg the moderator to move this thread to the Israeli forum.

Just to be clear- Wikipedia is a reliable source for absolutely nothing. Further, there is no such thing as mandatory mental health screenings for children. I have more than a few children and I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about (and I work in health care). Also, no one is forced to give their children Ritalin. Lastly, why are you asking the moderator to move someone else's thread?

m in Israel

Thu, Jun 14 2012, 11:29 am

ora_43 wrote:

m in Israel wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

amother wrote:

G-d bless America! Freedom of religion, freedom of choice, freedom to not tolerate abuse of any kind by anyone.
"You get what you pay for, cheap and free are worth exactly that, or less."

The bolded sentences certainly sounds like you are saying this is a free system. I have no problem with people referring to Medicaid as "free", even though obviously until all doctors and medical professionals become volunteers, no medical care is free. But because in Medicaid there is no direct correlation between those paying and those receiving, you can make a case that for the recipient, the service is free. Health care in Israel does not work like that -- mas briut is a specific fee for health care, collected by the government and then used to pay the private HMO's according to how many patients they have. Your right to coverage is directly connected to whether or not you pay your premiums -- no different then in the U.S. -- except that it is required by law to purchase the insurance, and a government agency administers the collection and distribution of these funds. When bituach leumi messed up some paperwork shortly after our Aliyah and thought that we were not paying the right amount of mas briut, we got warning notices that our insurance will be terminated if we don't take care of the payments. It happens to be that we pay more out of pocket for health care here then we did in the states, as I had health insurance as part of my benefits package at my job in the U.S., and I paid co-pays from a flex account of pre-tax dollars which saved on my taxes.

I happen to think the Israeli system is better than many countries with real "socialized medicine" because it is really only semi-governmental. The competition between the Kuppot (especially since they want to sell supplementary upgrades as well) serves to improve health care significantly, and gives consumers an element of choice that is missing in many of the European system. But I stand by my statement that it is disingenuous to call it "free".

edited to respond to Chavasmom -- see my first paragraph to explain the difference between "free public library" and "free public school" vs. the Israeli medical system. There is no correlation between whether or not you pay taxes (many in the U.S. don't!) and your right to use the library or school system.

Last edited by m in Israel on Thu, Jun 14 2012, 11:35 am; edited 1 time in total

m in Israel

Thu, Jun 14 2012, 12:01 pm

Ariellush wrote:

chavamom wrote:

Ariellush wrote:

amother wrote:

G-d bless America! Freedom of religion, freedom of choice, freedom to not tolerate abuse of any kind by anyone.
"You get what you pay for, cheap and free are worth exactly that, or less."

And also, Amother, what happened with those USA children forced to take Ritalin?

Forced mental health evaluations? Forced Ritalin? Lady, what are you on?

What is Ron Paul on? And how come that Maryanne Godboldo lost her child?

http://www.freemarketfan.com/2......html

Did I offend you personally, and is it a reason that you are so quick to be offensive? I am waiting for you to apologize...

Well, Ron Paul is not exactly mainstream, if you know what I mean. . .
But in any case, READ your own sources. He is trying to pass a bill to prevent any such screenings from taking place in the future -- currently they don't exist!! As for the specific case of Godboldo -- I don't know the details, but we are not exactly talking about Ritalin here. It was an anti psychotic medication, and we have no clue what it was being prescribed for. Generally it is very difficult to win a case against a parent for medical neglect -- so it clearly wasn't a case of something like ADHD. . .If child services can prove that withholding medication puts the child's life or safety at risk, they may be able to force the parent to provide the medication (there have been a few well known cases of Chrisitan Scientists and the like refusing cancer treatments for their children and being forced by the courts). That is a far cry from your statement "those US children forced to take Ritalin" -- you have yet to provide even a single example of this.

Ariellush

Thu, Jun 14 2012, 12:38 pm

[/quote] Well, Ron Paul is not exactly mainstream, if you know what I mean. . .
But in any case, READ your own sources. He is trying to pass a bill to prevent any such screenings from taking place in the future -- currently they don't exist!! As for the specific case of Godboldo -- I don't know the details, but we are not exactly talking about Ritalin here. It was an anti psychotic medication, and we have no clue what it was being prescribed for. Generally it is very difficult to win a case against a parent for medical neglect -- so it clearly wasn't a case of something like ADHD. . .If child services can prove that withholding medication puts the child's life or safety at risk, they may be able to force the parent to provide the medication (there have been a few well known cases of Chrisitan Scientists and the like refusing cancer treatments for their children and being forced by the courts). That is a far cry from your statement "those US children forced to take Ritalin" -- you have yet to provide even a single example of this.[/quote]

But what happened with Kyle Carrol?

http://breggin.com/index.php?o.....id=81

I am aware that dr Breggin is not mainstream, but does this fact make him a quack?

m in Israel

Thu, Jun 14 2012, 12:55 pm

And Child Services have not won their case against her -- the case has not happened yet. Look, I think Child Services is a terrible organization -- ineffective and in some cases vindictive. But these cases do not support your implication of the U.S. government "forcing" kids to take Ritalin! There are numerous cases in Israel of schools pushing parents to put their kids on Ritalin, too. In this case the school reported the parents to Child Services, who opened the case. The parents have a chance to argue their side as well. No mandatory screenings, no "kids being forced to take Ritalin", as your posts imply. And if somehow child services would win this case it still would not prove anything, as this is no where near a widespread phenomenon.

I worked in special ed in the NYC public school system for many years, and trust me, there were MANY students who really needed Ritalin (and I'm not quick to push medication, but sometimes it is a real NEED), and if the parents refused to pursue it, there was nothing we could do. The only evaluations we could force were psycho-educational, and even those were very very hard to do against parental consent -- basically the school system would have to take the parents to a hearing to force such an evaluation. Even if an eval recommended specific educational interventions, without parental consent we would need a hearing to change a child's placement. I would not be surprised to hear there are many more details to this case than are written in this one article.

I'm a bit of a libertarian myself -- but your statements are just not grounded in reality.

Ariellush

Thu, Jun 14 2012, 1:41 pm

m in Israel wrote:

Sorry, just reread your link and I see this is a case from 12 years ago!!! Do you know what the result of the hearing was?

I am just asking how a case like Kyle's was possible? What enabled CPS to act like that? Has the New Freedom Commission has anything to do with it? And has this "new freedom" anything to do with the principles of freedom and liberty? The fact that this case is from 12 years ago does not make my questions less fresh and important.

Anyway, I am glad to hear that I am not right and that nobody can force parents, at least the knowledgeable ones, to poison their children... Still, to verify or to dispute your first-hand evidence and to show that your experience is rather a rule than an exception requires a serious multidisciplinary national-level research that requires institutional support and the financial means that I don't have Crying

The same applies to the assumptions of the guys like dr Marcola, dr Bregin and Ron Paul. All that I have is the Internet, common sense and my limited time. And B"H I am in Israel and I feel free to yell back at those TH nurses... That does not necessarily mean that I really yell at anyone...

You also said "There are numerous cases in Israel of schools pushing parents to put their kids on Ritalin, too" ... Exactly. I had those cases in mind when I mentioned that Israel imported some stupid stuff from USA. No things like that in France, par example, whose culture is profoundly anti-American. Pushing parents to put their kids on Ritalin is originally a US invention, not an Israeli one... Israeli educational system is an imitation, a bad one, of the North American educational system.

Last edited by Ariellush on Thu, Jun 14 2012, 2:22 pm; edited 3 times in total