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-> Cleaning & Laundry
amother
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 Tue, Jul 31 2012, 9:43 pm
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Had the same issue. Set up a trap and a simple webcam, and caught footage of her stealing. Showed her the video. Most of the stolen items were returned. Horrible to lose trust in a person who worked inside your home for so long.
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b from nj
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Tue, Jul 31 2012, 10:00 pm
| kenz wrote: | | b from nj wrote: | | kenz wrote: | | Has no one here ever heard of the phrase "Lifnei iver lo sitein michshol?" Honestly guys, the cleaning ladies are all poor people who are not scrubbing your toilets b/c they love the work. Of course they should not steal but leaving $60 around one week, $40 the next, $20 after that, is really unfair and might even be baiting her. I agree you should probably not keep her around b/c you can't trust her, but it's not completely her fault. |
Sorry Kenz, but I think my son should be allowed to keep $80 in a clip in his night-table drawer. It's pretty sad if he needs to keep his $$ locked up in my safe even though I think that is what he will be doing from now on which is chaval!!! |
It's not a question of allowed or not allowed, it's a question of putting an unfair temptation in front of her - certainly the first time could not have been expected, but she was tested repeatedly. Again, I'm not defending her actions, but this concept of not placing stumbling block does exist in halachah; I didn't make it up. Shomrim and police - not to mention Rabbanim - are always saying that one should never, ever leave a cleaning lady alone in one's home, no matter how well you know them. There is a reason. |
Not having someone alone in one's home is unrealistic though. Babysitters that watch kids at home (& often do cleaning too) are left home alone many times...
I am familiar with lifnei iveir but this was the first time that my son & I had a specific plan in mind-to leave this $20 in the clip & see if it's still there afterwards...The other few times it was just my son mentioning it & arousing my suspicions but I wasn't involved as much in the plan so to speak. Anyhow, we will learn from our experiences & keep our money more secure & hope for the best...
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b from nj
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Tue, Jul 31 2012, 10:01 pm
| amother wrote: | | Had the same issue. Set up a trap and a simple webcam, and caught footage of her stealing. Showed her the video. Most of the stolen items were returned. Horrible to lose trust in a person who worked inside your home for so long. |
We should have done that!!!! Did you fire the person afterwards?
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kenz
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Tue, Jul 31 2012, 10:05 pm
| b from nj wrote: | | kenz wrote: | | b from nj wrote: | | kenz wrote: | | Has no one here ever heard of the phrase "Lifnei iver lo sitein michshol?" Honestly guys, the cleaning ladies are all poor people who are not scrubbing your toilets b/c they love the work. Of course they should not steal but leaving $60 around one week, $40 the next, $20 after that, is really unfair and might even be baiting her. I agree you should probably not keep her around b/c you can't trust her, but it's not completely her fault. |
Sorry Kenz, but I think my son should be allowed to keep $80 in a clip in his night-table drawer. It's pretty sad if he needs to keep his $$ locked up in my safe even though I think that is what he will be doing from now on which is chaval!!! |
It's not a question of allowed or not allowed, it's a question of putting an unfair temptation in front of her - certainly the first time could not have been expected, but she was tested repeatedly. Again, I'm not defending her actions, but this concept of not placing stumbling block does exist in halachah; I didn't make it up. Shomrim and police - not to mention Rabbanim - are always saying that one should never, ever leave a cleaning lady alone in one's home, no matter how well you know them. There is a reason. |
Not having someone alone in one's home is unrealistic though. Babysitters that watch kids at home (& often do cleaning too) are left home alone many times...
I am familiar with lifnei iveir but this was the first time that my son & I had a specific plan in mind-to leave this $20 in the clip & see if it's still there afterwards...The other few times it was just my son mentioning it & arousing my suspicions but I wasn't involved as much in the plan so to speak. Anyhow, we will learn from our experiences & keep our money more secure & hope for the best... |
Although a babysitter is an even more scary prospect b/c your children are involved, I'm not sure that that's what those saying no one should be alone in your home are referring to. They would assume that if you're trusting your them with your kids, there was a pretty rigorous vetting process. Cleaning ladies are rarely investigated quite so thoroughly, and although no one wants to be stolen from, obviously a mistreating nanny is far worse.
Anyway, you are right at this point to get rid of her and hopefully you won't have to deal with this issue again.
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MaBelleVie
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Tue, Jul 31 2012, 10:08 pm
| bobeli wrote: | I think most (if not all) cleaning help take something with them or steal in some way.
don't leave any valuable around and check on her more. you can leave a five someplace and then when she is in the house ask her if she saw it, they think you are rich and don't know that is missing.
before you fire her think that the next one might not clean good and steal the same... |
I think that's a horrible, horrible thing to say. Why would you make a statement like that? I have personally never had an issue. Neither has my mother. Our cleaning lady growing up used to save every penny, missing button and scrap of paper that she found in our clothes while doing the laundry (and it goes without saying that nothing bigger ever went missing either). Cleaning women are human beings- some better, some less so- but they aren't all (or most) thieves.
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b from nj
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Tue, Jul 31 2012, 10:14 pm
| MaBelleVie wrote: | | bobeli wrote: | I think most (if not all) cleaning help take something with them or steal in some way.
don't leave any valuable around and check on her more. you can leave a five someplace and then when she is in the house ask her if she saw it, they think you are rich and don't know that is missing.
before you fire her think that the next one might not clean good and steal the same... |
I think that's a horrible, horrible thing to say. Why would you make a statement like that? I have personally never had an issue. Neither has my mother. Our cleaning lady growing up used to save every penny, missing button and scrap of paper that she found in our clothes while doing the laundry (and it goes without saying that nothing bigger ever went missing either). Cleaning women are human beings- some better, some less so- but they aren't all (or most) thieves. |
Truth is, I had complete (or nearly complete) faith in this woman who was very pleasant, quiet, easy going & also honest. She was also great at finding missing things around the house & often would also give me things that she found in the laundry etc (including money sometimes, my husband's license etc..) which is part of why this is so shocking to me. She had worked for a good friend before me for awhile & my friend thought she was reliable & honest. In fact my friend feels so badly about what happened since she had recommended her to me but I told her to PLEASE not feel badly b/c we BOTH thought that she was very reliable & my friend had left her young child with her as well (b/c she felt that she was reliable..)
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elf123
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Tue, Jul 31 2012, 11:16 pm
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With all the positive things you've said about her, and I know you've said you're 99% sure she had to have done it, I'm still trying to wrap my head around it and be dan l'kaf zechus. Not that it would be an excuse, but could she possibly be in desperate straits either b/c of her father's situation or something else going on in her life that would make her do something uncharacteristic? Or do you think she's actually been two-faced all along, acting a certain way when she was never really trustworthy at all? Do you think now that she's been stealing from you for all these years?
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b from nj
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Tue, Jul 31 2012, 11:37 pm
| elf123 wrote: | | With all the positive things you've said about her, and I know you've said you're 99% sure she had to have done it, I'm still trying to wrap my head around it and be dan l'kaf zechus. Not that it would be an excuse, but could she possibly be in desperate straits either b/c of her father's situation or something else going on in her life that would make her do something uncharacteristic? Or do you think she's actually been two-faced all along, acting a certain way when she was never really trustworthy at all? Do you think now that she's been stealing from you for all these years? |
I am also having trouble wrapping my head around this!! I REALLY don't get it. I don't think she was stealing all along but I guess the first time it came up as an issue was after my son returned from sleepaway camp last summer but to be honest I really thought it was more my son being forgetful than her. it was only relatively recent that my son had that $80, $60 of which was missing over the past couple of months (since the summer began I think) & today was just the straw that broke the camel's back (I'm the camel  ).
It is possible that she IS in dire straights (which is why she needed the loan) but it really doesn't excuse her taking my son's money or my DH's $40...I do feel for her if that's the case but I still don't feel comfortable having her here.
I tried calling her several times tonight but I didn't want to leave a message. I will try again tomorrow & hope for the best. right now, I am thinking that I'd rather have no one than have her come again when she is supposed to come b/c I don't feel like she is trustworthy anymore but of course, there are no guarantees about the next person's honesty but in any case I am too uncomfortable for her to continue working.
I think I will ask her if she saw my son's $20 & see what she says. if she denies it I'll just mention that I saw it there last night & he didn't touch it since then & after she left I noticed it was missing. I doubt she will admit anything but I plan to just say after that that I don't want her to continue working anymore. I just hope there won't be any negative repercussions for me...
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studying_torah
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Tue, Jul 31 2012, 11:58 pm
I know what you mean; I sometimes used the wife of my husband's (non jewish) worker as a cleaning girl. She always seemed so honest, never took my stuff if she found it, etc.
But guess what- I found a bunch of my kids clothes missing - and she has kids the same size as mine..... DH called her husband to tell her she must find the stuff. I thought she'd put it back when she came to 'look' but she didn't. She just claimed she never saw the clothes.
I haven't decided if it's too late to put in cameras- she might be tipped off already; or if dh should just say he's not paying her bec. I keep needing to replace the missing clothes.
It's very shocking tho....and pretty awful.
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ElTam
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Wed, Aug 01 2012, 12:14 am
Just one question,
1. Was the money 100% sure where it was in the amount it was before the cleaning woman came?
2. Was anyone other than you and the cleaning lady in the house between when the amount was checked and when you noticed the money was missing?
Because if ANYONE else was in the house, you don't know it was her. Son could have forgot he took the money out himself. Things fall behind things, under things. It's easiest to say, "The cleaning lady took it." I've had cleaning ladies off and on for many, many years. I've never had one steal. I've had stuff go missing. Then I found it later, somewhere a member of the family had put it and forgotten.
My aunt fired her cleaning lady for stealing. Turns out it was one of her kids taking money from her purse. (That all came out later.)
If she's so wonderful, I think you owe it to yourself to do a very controlled experiment, where you know where the money is, how much is there, check it when no one is in the house right before the cleaning lady comes and check again after she leaves with no one but you in the house the whole time. Zero exceptions.
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MaBelleVie
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Wed, Aug 01 2012, 12:18 am
| studying_torah wrote: | I know what you mean; I sometimes used the wife of my husband's (non jewish) worker as a cleaning girl. She always seemed so honest, never took my stuff if she found it, etc.
But guess what- I found a bunch of my kids clothes missing - and she has kids the same size as mine..... DH called her husband to tell her she must find the stuff. I thought she'd put it back when she came to 'look' but she didn't. She just claimed she never saw the clothes.
I haven't decided if it's too late to put in cameras- she might be tipped off already; or if dh should just say he's not paying her bec. I keep needing to replace the missing clothes.
It's very shocking tho....and pretty awful. |
Are you positive she took it? I realized a month ago that dh's silver menora was missing from the silver cabinet. I freaked out, and couldn't stop myself from wondering if the nanny had anything to do with it. After a frantic search, I found it in a random cabinet, in a plastic bag, and remembered once I saw it that I had never put it back because it wasn't cleaned after chanuka. The worst part of it all was the guilt I felt for suspecting the nanny even a little bit.
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b from nj
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Wed, Aug 01 2012, 7:36 am
| studying_torah wrote: | I know what you mean; I sometimes used the wife of my husband's (non jewish) worker as a cleaning girl. She always seemed so honest, never took my stuff if she found it, etc.
But guess what- I found a bunch of my kids clothes missing - and she has kids the same size as mine..... DH called her husband to tell her she must find the stuff. I thought she'd put it back when she came to 'look' but she didn't. She just claimed she never saw the clothes.
I haven't decided if it's too late to put in cameras- she might be tipped off already; or if dh should just say he's not paying her bec. I keep needing to replace the missing clothes.
It's very shocking tho....and pretty awful. |
I feel for you completely. So upsetting when this happens & what are you supposed to do? Hide your children's clothing ?!!!
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b from nj
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Wed, Aug 01 2012, 7:43 am
| ElTam wrote: | Just one question,
1. Was the money 100% sure where it was in the amount it was before the cleaning woman came?
2. Was anyone other than you and the cleaning lady in the house between when the amount was checked and when you noticed the money was missing?
Because if ANYONE else was in the house, you don't know it was her. Son could have forgot he took the money out himself. Things fall behind things, under things. It's easiest to say, "The cleaning lady took it." I've had cleaning ladies off and on for many, many years. I've never had one steal. I've had stuff go missing. Then I found it later, somewhere a member of the family had put it and forgotten.
My aunt fired her cleaning lady for stealing. Turns out it was one of her kids taking money from her purse. (That all came out later.)
If she's so wonderful, I think you owe it to yourself to do a very controlled experiment, where you know where the money is, how much is there, check it when no one is in the house right before the cleaning lady comes and check again after she leaves with no one but you in the house the whole time. Zero exceptions. |
This was exactly what we did with the $20. My son DEF did NOT take the money in the am (b/c he doesn't take money to camp) & ALL of my kids were out of the house since the morning. Also, my other kids do not go into his room (in the attic) & nobody else was in his room. It was in his dresser the night before (we had both checked) & it was gone when she left yesterday. I am really done with these experiments b/c my poor kid is down at least $40 & most likely $60 b/c he doesn't spend his money on anything but keeps noticing that he is down $20. He goes out to work & hangs out at home at night & does not take money with him. I am not willing to lose any more money over this even though it is hard to tell her not to come back & now I will have to deal with building trust with someone new.
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shoeboxgirly
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Wed, Aug 01 2012, 7:51 am
I had this problem at Pesach, I didn't have a regular cleaner, but even as a student I would treat myself to one for Pesach. I got a recommendation from a friend and got this woman in, she was a complete disaster, making extra work for herself, lying about how far she had got, criticising the way I have my house (not how clean it was, but she was very rude about how it was decorated), she called my husband something I won't repeat because he is younger than her son then when I went into my bedroom I caught her putting things from my make up bag and some other things in another [her] bag, it included some prescription cream that my husband needs.
So I got my husband to stop her cleaning (I was livid and not good to converse with), and we paid her for the time she was in the house (she might not have deserved it) and never asked her back.
The real issue I had was with not telling the friend who had recommended her what I think I witnessed. I could have been wrong about her and completely misread the situation, so I had to hold myself back.
I didn't have a cleaner again until 4 weeks ago, as I couldn't trust anyone to be in my home, then I found someone who I am very happy with and it is all looking up, but I'm still lacking in the trust.
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sarahla
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Wed, Aug 01 2012, 7:59 am
| kenz wrote: | | b from nj wrote: | | kenz wrote: | | Has no one here ever heard of the phrase "Lifnei iver lo sitein michshol?" Honestly guys, the cleaning ladies are all poor people who are not scrubbing your toilets b/c they love the work. Of course they should not steal but leaving $60 around one week, $40 the next, $20 after that, is really unfair and might even be baiting her. I agree you should probably not keep her around b/c you can't trust her, but it's not completely her fault. |
Sorry Kenz, but I think my son should be allowed to keep $80 in a clip in his night-table drawer. It's pretty sad if he needs to keep his $$ locked up in my safe even though I think that is what he will be doing from now on which is chaval!!! |
It's not a question of allowed or not allowed, it's a question of putting an unfair temptation in front of her - certainly the first time could not have been expected, but she was tested repeatedly. Again, I'm not defending her actions, but this concept of not placing stumbling block does exist in halachah; I didn't make it up. Shomrim and police - not to mention Rabbanim - are always saying that one should never, ever leave a cleaning lady alone in one's home, no matter how well you know them. There is a reason. |
Kenz, I think it's very sad to think this way, have we come so low in society that now it is expected of cleaning help to steal bec they're poor and they only clean bec they need money. An honest person is an honest person SIMPLE regardless of they're situation. Also OP said money wasn't laying around it was kept in a night stand so she had to open and find it... I looking for it
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sarahla
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Wed, Aug 01 2012, 8:08 am
| b from nj wrote: | | sarahla wrote: | I would give her a call and tell her you'd like to speak with her so if she could come over. Then tell her how you feel, betrayed that you trusted her that you loan her money and that it very disrespectful since you and DH are working hard fr the money she is stealing.
See how she reacts and regardless of what she says/ cry/ begs don't take her back !!! IMHO it's better not having a cleaning lady than having one that steals bec who knows what else she will take next time.
I've learned the hard way not to go out of my wa for cleaning help, the nicer you are the more they take advantadge. Wen you go to work your boss isn't buying you lunch is he!? So why give her lunch!?
Also obv one shouldnt treat cleaning help being mean and disrespectful, but more she your employee not your friend.
Good luck |
I wouldn't want her to have to shlep out here b/c she lives in another town & comes via public transportation. I think I will have to tell her over the phone. still agonizing over what to say  . |
You're too nice OP, why shouldn't she shelp across town when she stole from you...she owes it to you to come to have a face to face talk.
You can say: I asked you to come not become I need you to clean my house but bec I want to talk to you. I know you've been stealing money from us and it is very hurtful what you did. We trusted you for so many year, you borrowed money from us and you went behind my back stealing !!! W worked hard for that money, as hard as you do for YOUR money. It's very sad but please don't come back here.
Then show her the door. If she propose to pay you back the money she took, ACCEPT THE MONEY BUT DON'T TAKE HER BACK. I'm sure it's very hard not having cleaning help but have a family reunion and talk about the situation. Explain to your kids why you don't have a cleaning help anymore and tell them that everyone need to clean their room/ do laundry plus a few other chores in the house for common area ( obv do it age appropriate) and tell them it will be like this until we find someone else to clean our house. Tell them a family is a team and everyone needs to contribute, and tell them that with the money you're saving you will save it and go on a nice family outing. Maybe an amusement park and restaurant after 
don't let it affect you personally think about how sad it is that she does fear HaShem.
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b from nj
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Wed, Aug 01 2012, 8:14 am
| shoeboxgirly wrote: | I had this problem at Pesach, I didn't have a regular cleaner, but even as a student I would treat myself to one for Pesach. I got a recommendation from a friend and got this woman in, she was a complete disaster, making extra work for herself, lying about how far she had got, criticising the way I have my house (not how clean it was, but she was very rude about how it was decorated), she called my husband something I won't repeat because he is younger than her son then when I went into my bedroom I caught her putting things from my make up bag and some other things in another [her] bag, it included some prescription cream that my husband needs.
So I got my husband to stop her cleaning (I was livid and not good to converse with), and we paid her for the time she was in the house (she might not have deserved it) and never asked her back.
The real issue I had was with not telling the friend who had recommended her what I think I witnessed. I could have been wrong about her and completely misread the situation, so I had to hold myself back.
I didn't have a cleaner again until 4 weeks ago, as I couldn't trust anyone to be in my home, then I found someone who I am very happy with and it is all looking up, but I'm still lacking in the trust. |
so sorry about your experience. I DEF would have mentioned what I had seen to the friend who recommended her just so she knew...
I'm also happy for you that you found someone new & that it's working out with her. hope it keeps up.
I also totally get you regarding the trust issues b/c I feel that is what I am going to have now with future workers.
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b from nj
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Wed, Aug 01 2012, 8:18 am
| sarahla wrote: | | b from nj wrote: | | sarahla wrote: | I would give her a call and tell her you'd like to speak with her so if she could come over. Then tell her how you feel, betrayed that you trusted her that you loan her money and that it very disrespectful since you and DH are working hard fr the money she is stealing.
See how she reacts and regardless of what she says/ cry/ begs don't take her back !!! IMHO it's better not having a cleaning lady than having one that steals bec who knows what else she will take next time.
I've learned the hard way not to go out of my wa for cleaning help, the nicer you are the more they take advantadge. Wen you go to work your boss isn't buying you lunch is he!? So why give her lunch!?
Also obv one shouldnt treat cleaning help being mean and disrespectful, but more she your employee not your friend.
Good luck |
I wouldn't want her to have to shlep out here b/c she lives in another town & comes via public transportation. I think I will have to tell her over the phone. still agonizing over what to say . |
You're too nice OP, why shouldn't she shelp across town when she stole from you...she owes it to you to come to have a face to face talk.
You can say: I asked you to come not become I need you to clean my house but bec I want to talk to you. I know you've been stealing money from us and it is very hurtful what you did. We trusted you for so many year, you borrowed money from us and you went behind my back stealing !!! W worked hard for that money, as hard as you do for YOUR money. It's very sad but please don't come back here.
Then show her the door. If she propose to pay you back the money she took, ACCEPT THE MONEY BUT DON'T TAKE HER BACK. I'm sure it's very hard not having cleaning help but have a family reunion and talk about the situation. Explain to your kids why you don't have a cleaning help anymore and tell them that everyone need to clean their room/ do laundry plus a few other chores in the house for common area ( obv do it age appropriate) and tell them it will be like this until we find someone else to clean our house. Tell them a family is a team and everyone needs to contribute, and tell them that with the money you're saving you will save it and go on a nice family outing. Maybe an amusement park and restaurant after
don't let it affect you personally think about how sad it is that she does fear HaShem. |
Thanks Sarah & I agree that I am too nice b/c I try to treat ppl. the way I would want to be treated.
Anyhow, I tried her twice last night (but didn't leave a message) & she called me back this morning & I told her that my son is missing the $20 which she of course claims she didn't take. I explained to her that I was very sad about the situation but this wasn't the first time that he was missing $20 & I was sorry but that I was not going to be able to have her come back. Oh well, too bad all around but life goes on.
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sarahla
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Wed, Aug 01 2012, 8:28 am
Sorry OP you deserve better...I'm just like you I always treat pp the way I want to be treated but unfortunately sometimes they are exception to the rules and you have to treat pp the we they deserve to be treated.
I do think that good will come out of it, have you family involve in the house, they will have more appreciation of a clean house and will realize it takes work, it will teach them for life. The best part is that your family will be stronger and have a good bounding experience to work as a team as a united family. Plus going on an awesome trip with money you saved or taking the kids out will be a good reward for everyone.
Good luck
Ps if she ever had your house key, CHANGE THE LOCKS NOW
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amother
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Wed, Aug 01 2012, 8:31 am
Just wanted to share, in case it makes you feel better somehow, that my parents had a similar situation only worse because the cleaning lady was Jewish and frum and worked for my parents for many years, to the point that the relationship with her went way beyond professional (my parents helped her family out in extreme situations). Well slowly my mother realized that money, clothes and other things around the house went missing and then she found out it was her (I can't remember if she saw the things by her or confronted her).
That was the end of that...
BTW funny enough- I was a kid at the time and for some reason, as close as she was to my family, I had this unrealistic fear of this cleaning lady, night mares and such.
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