Bitachon regarding money & Bitachon regarding weight los

TranquilityAndPeace

Thu, Oct 11 2012, 3:11 pm

I was listening to a shiur this morning which made me think of this question, which often pops into my mind:

The speaker said "You do your hishtadlus and have bitachon, and God gives you the money you're supposed to get. Obviously, you're not supposed to do nothing and expect manna to rain down from heaven."

That's great.

But here's what I wonder:

Why doesn't anyone ever talk about having bitachon with regard to a zillion other things in our lives? For example (and I can post lots), losing weight?

Why don't speakers ever say "You do your hishtadlus and have bitachon, and God will make the scale say the number it's supposed to say. Obviously, you're not supposed to eat deep-fried ice cream and expect to be a size 2."

When it comes to earning money, we are often told to disassociate our efforts from our results, because God gives us the amount of money destined on Rosh Hashana.

But isn't God in control of EVERYTHING? Even our weight?

Why don't people ever advise overweight people to pray for weight loss? Why don't people ever tell dieters that they're doing too much hishtadlus, to back off their salad-eating and exercising, and just trust that God will make them lose the amount of weight they're supposed to lose this month?

amother

Thu, Oct 11 2012, 5:28 pm

etky wrote:

I actually think that weight loss is all about the realization that you are in control of what you eat.
It is an issue of empowerment. Once you believe in yourself and realize that overweight is a situation that you can take charge of and change then you have set yourself up for success. I think that the passive approach that you described is counter productive. You have to have emunah in hashem that he will bolster your confidence in yourself so as to enable you to take charge of your weight. Once you take charge you are making room for the siyata d'shmaya that is necessary for any successful venture.

You clearly have not had a true struggle with weight if you believe that controlling what you eat is all their is to it. Controlling what you eat is a factor, but there are so many variables at play and many of them are not in your control. Just some off the top of my head- genetics, reactions to medications you may be taking, stress factors (which can make it difficult to lose weight even if you are eating ok), health factors that make it difficult to exercise, factors that effect sleep, support, finding the eating plan that is right for you.... I could go on but this is enough! Relying on G-d is not passive, just like recognizing your parnassah is from G-d is not passive. In both approaches you need to recognize that we are not in control of a lot of things and then learn to identify the part we can control and work within that, but realizing that ultimately our success is not up to us.

m in Israel

Thu, Oct 11 2012, 6:11 pm

My understanding is that this is exactly what we believe -- there is a famous ma'amar Chazal that says "hakol biydei Shamayim chutz miyiras shamayim" (sorry, I'm terrible at transliterating!) In other words the ONLY thing that we ultimately can actually control is our own yiras shamayim/ avodas Hashem. Hashem has given us that bechira to choose our own actions -- but results are completely out of our control. It is true about parnassah, and it is true about everything else. We are still responsible to do our hishtadlus, but we have to balance that we the understanding that Hashem ultimately determines results.

Now obviously this is somewhat simplistic, because you can get into the whole debate of well what if I don't do legitimate hishtadlus? Does that change the outcome? If it doesn't, what do I need hishtadlus for? And if it does, obviously in some way the results connect to my actions, right? These questions apply to parnassah as well as anything else. But it does not seem to me that you are questioning how hishtadlut/ bitachon/ bashert interact -- just if it applies to areas beyond parnassah. And to that I think the answer is undeniably yes.

BTW, I do hear this concept spoken about on topics other then money. For example in many shiurim on Chinuch that I have listened to, I have heard people say that we have to raise our kids as best as we can, but ultimately we have to daven hard that we have success in Chinuch Habanim. (Actually one of my favourite lines that I once heard in a shiur on this topic is "Raising kids is 1% hishtadlus and 99% siyata dishmaya -- but that 1%, oh boy, do you have to do it well!!") And although I never heard anyone say it specifically with regard to weight, I certainly have heard the concept with regard to health in general -- that obviously one's health is completely in Hashem's hands, but we are still responsible to do what we can to keep ourselves healthy.

etky

Thu, Oct 11 2012, 6:15 pm

amother wrote:

etky wrote:

I lost 70 pounds 9 years ago and have b"h kept it all off with a tremendous amount of effort and siyata d'shmaya. Every single day of my life, from babyhood, has been a struggle with weight.

amother

Thu, Oct 11 2012, 6:43 pm

etky wrote:

amother wrote:

etky wrote:

I lost 70 pounds 9 years ago and have b"h kept it all off with a tremendous amount of effort and siyata d'shmaya. Every single day of my life, from babyhood, has been a struggle with weight.

I guess our disagreement is a chicken and egg problem then. I have also lost a lot of weight, bH and I know how difficult it is and how much personal effort is required, but my old starting premise used to be that it was in my control and it never worked for me because then my failures would be mine alone and they were too crushing. (And the chorus of the rest of the world that tells people that being fat is entirely their fault doesn't help either.) Once I started from the premise that G-d controls so many of the factors that contributed to my weight I was able to separate out what I could take care of and feel confident that the rest was up to Him. For me ultimately it's what helped me be successful. It seems like the premise of G-d being in control was a given for you always, wasn't so for me.

etky

Thu, Oct 11 2012, 7:08 pm

I undertook my weight loss venture after I had given birth to 3 children, with the help of fertility treatments (that exacerbated an existing weight/hormonal problem).
It was the next "big thing" that I had to do.
I think that during those years of treatments I felt so out of control of my body and so dependent on Hashem regarding the outcome of the treatments that weight loss seemed like something that was so much more a function of the efforts that I could contribute.
I also am in a very high risk group for breast cancer. I remember thinking that I can't control if I get cancer or not but I can do everything possible, including losing weight, to reduce my risks. The weight, at least, was something I could control even if it meant (and it did and still does!!) expending tremendous effort doing so.
So yes - I attribute my success (long may it wave...) to Hashem allowing me those insights and granting me the sense of purpose and appropriate conditions to lose the weight and keep it off.
But compared with issues such as conception and lo aleinu contracting serious illnesses where we really have so little control over outcomes despite any hishtadlut we may do, when it comes to weight our own efforts go so much further.

acccdac

Thu, Oct 11 2012, 8:47 pm

I agree wtih your thoughts.

I dont think everyone views money like the speaker asks us to. Many people view making money in the same way we view weight loss.

the question may more likely be said "for those who are able to apply the concept of bitachon/histadlus to money, why cant they apply this thought for themselves when it comes to their weight loss ?"

my other thought was that weight loss is a kind of "simple" concept, calories in = calories out, if you eat too much and dont watch and dont exercise you'll gain weight, etc. Only you are in the equation with the food.
When it comes to money, you are not the only thing in the equation, your boss and/or clients are "in control" also. This means you are not in control completely, its kind of fighting for control but you'll never gain it. When it comes to weight loss you CAN be in full control, you cant blame your lack of weight loss on the lack of a personal trainer or money.

So I like the comparison but it is not 100% the same

BusyBeeMommy

Thu, Oct 11 2012, 8:59 pm

acccdac wrote:

Weight loss is not so simple for everyone. Many people have metabolic issues. thyroid issues, emotional attachment to food, genetic factors... One example is when a person who has had emotional trauma uses food as her go-to for feeling good. Almost like abusing drugs and alcohol. Once that emotional tie is formed with food, it can be extremely difficult for her to break it off, especially when she's hit with hard times. She is someone who has a giant struggle and who should daven to Hashem to help her rid herself of the unhealthy attachment she has to food. Staying away from that comforting cake when her husband just flew off the handle yet again and crashed all the glass in the china closet may be murder for her. It's not so simple for everyone.

I also like to think in regards to weight loss, that we are actually commanded in the Torah to watch over our body that houses our soul, so taking steps towards weight loss is a mitzvah that we should be doing. I don't know how it all ties in, but it is just another thought to add.

acccdac

Thu, Oct 11 2012, 10:03 pm

BusyBeeMommy wrote:

acccdac wrote:

that is why I put the word "simple" in quotes, once one identifies their problem it is a "simple" issue to fix. Simple doesnt mean easy, those are two different words. If you know your issue is metabolic, then you work different ways to change your metabolic rate, if its emotional (like me) then you need to deal with your emotional issues or figure out how to "get over" the need (I know that when I feel the need to eat emotionally I call a specific person and I talked it out with them and deal with the emotional problem at the time instead of eating my problems, the only issue with that is this friend is not always available when I need her). However, this all has to do with ME or the person trying to lose weight. If I choose to eat when I need to emotionally, I cant blame my friend for not being available, I need to accept the responsibility that I at emotionally.

The OP is not debating weight loss methods or whether or not someone should be held "responsible" for being fat or whether or not it is an easy thing to lose weight. She is discussing whether or not the histadlus topic should/can be applied to other issues such as weight loss.

etky

Fri, Oct 12 2012, 5:10 am

acccdac wrote:

BusyBeeMommy wrote:

acccdac wrote:

Exactly! My feeling is - and I am trying to tread lightly here because it is a sensitive topic- that people sometimes use bitachon in Hashem as a cop-out, a way to avoid taking charge, in this case, of their weight problem. Obviously it is not simple (as in easy) for many many people and that is why obesity is so rampant. It is a difficult, demanding process that demands commitments and perseverance basically for the rest of your life. And everyone has their own personal medical, physiological or emotional complication. But honestly - most obesity (most, not all) is of the garden variety that can be dealt with by cutting calories and exercise and if need by by gastric by-pass in extreme cases. Sometimes therapy is required too. But if you grip the bull by the horns then it is something that can be addressed and controlled. Yes, a great deal of effort is required but it is, for the most part, something doable. Contrast this with a woman trying to conceive - she can undergo all the procedures in the world but sheer effort alone will not make it happen unless Hashem (the shutaf shlishi according to tradition), gives the nod at the precise moment for conception to occur. Similarly with recovery from severe illness or even parnassa to some extent since in that area much relies on what we like to call "mazel" or fortuitous circumstances but what we really mean is Hashem's involvement.
What I am saying is that I just cannot view weight loss in the same category as other areas where bitachon must be a much larger component of the mind set with which one deals with the problem.
Obviously, Hashem has a role to play but we are the ones who have to be proactive and we must realize that it is never, ever,going to be an easy struggle. The room for hishtadlut in this area is vast.

amother

Fri, Oct 12 2012, 5:25 am

My weight has left my doctors and dieticians baffled. I eat very few calories of only healthful food. My lunch is a bowl of homemade vegetable soup or fresh salad. My dinner is 1 piece of plain chicken or fish. A snack is a vegetable, fruit, or yogurt. I don't eat carbs. I don't eat sugar. I eat a very small amount of fat - what's in the chicken or fish. I exercise daily. I'm 40-50 lbs. overweight.

I actually posted about this recently but the only thing they know is that my metabolism is virtually nonexistent. So yes, I daven each and every day to Hashem that He should help my doctors figure out what the problem is and how to fix it as I get sent from test to test.

And to those who wrote calories in = calories out, please. If that were the case with everyone, I would be a size 2. Are you one of those patronizing people who come over to me and say something ridiculous, like, "Have you tried cutting out coca cola?" Or, "Maybe stay away from cake?" Thank you, Sherlock. I haven't had soda or cake since before I can remember. Please remember this the next time you tell someone it's simple. Rolling Eyes