I'm a frum woman + tallit and tefillin. Ask me anything.

bamamama

Sun, Apr 28 2013, 10:42 pm

miami85 wrote:

bamamama wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

bamamama wrote:

The reasons she was quoting, though, had little to do with halacha and more to do with apologetics.

The diamonds vs. whatever-it-was part wasn't halacha. But I don't think it can be called apologetics unless you're saying that there's no legitimate reason to say that women aren't obligated in tefillin. It's only apologetics if there's something to apologize for.

We wouldn't call it apologetics if a man said that men's souls are inherently higher than women's.

The rest I think was legitimate, maybe not halacha but I think probably an accurate reading of the halachic view. "If my soul needed (tefillin/to bless the congregation) Hashem would have made me (a man/a Cohen)" is a fairly standard way to relate to mitzvot that other Jews are obligated in but you (general you) aren't.

She's "apologizing" for the second-class role women have when it comes to davening/shul.

I have nothing to "apologize" for because I don't feel like a "2nd class citizen" I understand that it's not meant for me. Especially since husband and wife are considered "1-unit" what my husband gets is part of mine also. I'm proud to say the bracha "sh'asani kirtzono"

my sons are also proud to say the bracha "sh'asani kirtzono".

bamamama

Sun, Apr 28 2013, 10:46 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

bamamama wrote:

celestial wrote:

I don't think it means you are hereby required to have your consciousness raised.

It means you should probably expand your idea of what is good/right/true/genuine within Orthodoxy if you were so repulsed by the idea of women putting on tallis and teffilin due to some apologetics of some kind that really just serve to justify Jewish habit, not Jewish spirituality. I'm not saying that's you PinkFridge, I'm just saying that's the takeway in my opinion.

^Celestial nailed it.

's ok, PF. I also respect that there are FFB women with serious mesorah behind what they do and are comfortable with. If people want to come up with/believe poetic ideas which explain certain practices in their brand of Orthodoxy, that's not a problem. But to try to use those flowery explanations to convince someone to stop what she's doing (when what she's doing is TOTALLY legit!) isn't really respectful of other brands of Orthodoxy.

I'm still having a hard time not feeling patronized and condescended to for buying into this. All I ask from the same people who I've repeatedly not lambasted, whose shoes I've tried to put myself in (ouch! I have big flat feet), whose rabbanim I might not follow but who I will not summarily dismiss, is for "the flowery apologetics" to be granted legitimacy. I believe that the mesorah for this goes back further than latter 20th century kiruvville.

Bli neder, I'm better with tackling the written word than listening to shiurim. I'm going to try to dig up a pamphlet I have that was given out at a 1970s BY convention on women's lib based on the writings of Rav Hirsch. I think there's some good, you should pardon the expression juicy stuff there. I'll be back.... Tongue Out

I apologize, PF. I re-read what I wrote and I totally see how it sounds patronizing though that wasn't my intent when I wrote it. I'll write more after I get these kids to bed but I wanted you to know I'm sorry. I'm also interested in getting to the historical bottom of explanations for women's roles in Judaism.

poelmamosh

Sun, Apr 28 2013, 10:57 pm

I am seriously trying to understand how any woman buys into a religion that she is convinced is biased against her. The Torah I learn is rich with female role models who were most certainly not secondary to their male counterparts (including, but not limited to those who defied gender-specified roles). It has many instructive passages about their worth, including Hashem's command to Avraham to "listen to all that Sarah tells him," Rivkah's "trick" to align the blessings with their right heir, the front line status of the righteous women in Egypt, post-Exodus and in the building of the Mishkan (with decided superiority over their men), Eshes Chayil, the story of Esther and on and on.

I see it as the unfortunate fallout of golus (originating in Chava's sin) that the world in general, including aspects of halacha as they stand today (for example, the agunah situation, R"L), is not aligned with the truth of women's inherent greatness. I believe that the feminist movement - not in philosophy, but in kind, is one indicator of the world changing for better. But as many post-feminists will admit, woman's victory in infiltrating the male-dominated realm was not the great equalizer it was touted to be, so a woman donning talis and tefillin is not the answer, IMHO.

Oh, I forgot. The reason I clicked on this thread was to let y'all know that I put on tefillin today.

Well, the male half of my soul did. Smile

Merrymom

Sun, Apr 28 2013, 11:01 pm

BlueRose52 wrote:

Merrymom wrote:

BlueRose52 wrote:

Merrymom wrote:

If women do not serve a public role in shul, it's for tznius reasons.

Are you aware that according to the gemara (Megillah 23a) a woman is allowed to get an aliya? It's only restricted because of kavod hatzibur (there is discussion of what exactly "kavod hatzibur" means, but consensus is that it's NOT about tznius). How does that fit with your notion that public roles for women are not tznius?

I'm trying to imagine being called up to an aliyah and walking up to the bima in my heels, long shaitel, and rather attractive dress (if I do say so myself). I think that would feel like the walk of shame. I certainly couldn't fathom how that picture would be tznius or appropriate. There's a reason for a mechitzah and we don't belong on that side.

I just showed you that chazal clearly don't agree with what you're claiming here. You've always struck me as someone that sees the views as chazal as absolutely sacrosanct. Now, I wouldn't think it fair to ask you to actually do anything that you feel uncomfortable with, but how can you keep insisting on a view that chazal disagree with? Are you saying chazal were wrong?

Because a woman is allowed to get an aliyah doesn't suddenly make it tznius to have co-mingling of the s*xes during davening.

Bamamama, I didn't mean a minyan, I meant being called for aliyos.

Do I feel like a second class citizen? Not in my own home, but yes sometimes I get the feeling that others would like to make me into a second class citizen. That doesn't make my brand of Judaism any less valid, just that there are obnoxious people everywhere. In fact one time when I was in Israel a couple of women got attacked by some man in the bus station because they were wearing yarmulkes. So now when I see all the attention that these women are getting, part of me thinks they're weirdos, but the other part of me likes it that it's disturbing all those obnoxious men. I find it kind of funny almost. I mean a normal man would just roll his eyes and walk on, so who's really disturbed by these women? Those with the most fragile of egos imho. This doesn't take away from the fact of what I and most orthodox people THINK of them. Giving women the right to wear tefilin at the kotel however is not suddenly going to give the woman a right to divorce her husband against his will. Sometimes what seems like a big obstacle is really just a challenge to find new solutions. Kesubos with pre-arranged conditions for example, instead of organs from brain dead people, new research such as stem cell research so we won't need those organs. Why is it that people have such tunnel vision? Why is the current solution, the only solution? Our religion does not persecute women and wearing tefilin or hanging out with the men is not the answer to our feelings of being treated less than.

bamamama

Sun, Apr 28 2013, 11:29 pm

poelmamosh wrote:

To answer your first question: because Judaism is beautiful even if the decisions the rabbis make/made are not. And, tashiri kochaych on the tefillin! I don't think OP is putting them on to assert her self as a feminist (though I could be wrong). I get the impression that it's genuinely meaningful to her.

poelmamosh

Sun, Apr 28 2013, 11:34 pm

bamamama wrote:

poelmamosh wrote:

I agree about OP. Which is why I joined this thread only at the point where it was asserted (by other posters) that the sole reason most frum women do not don tefillin for cultural reasons.

bamamama

Sun, Apr 28 2013, 11:37 pm

bamamama wrote:

PinkFridge wrote:

bamamama wrote:

celestial wrote:

Kids are finally asleep. What I meant to say, PF... I respect that some people have very strong family traditions. Those traditions are important to them - it's how they were raised, what they saw their mother do, what their grandmother did. I can completely appreciate someone choosing to continue living that life and raising their daughters in it assuming they are happy doing so. I don't think it requires fanciful explanations. The strength of family and community ties is reason enough (I'm speaking of things which are independent of halacha, btw - such as the distaste some have at the thought of having an aliyah in shul). The obvious caveat is where the situation is harmful to girls/women. We've discussed those types of situations (education - or lack thereof - in some chassidic sects, for example). Then, it's my opinion that family tradition isn't good enough and change is required.

Is this a little less ham-handed?

miami85

Sun, Apr 28 2013, 11:40 pm

my sons are also proud to say the bracha "sh'asani kirtzono". --May I ask why?

I wasn't condemning the practice I was merely asking the OP why she feels that this is an appropriate step for her?

I feel that egalitarianism is denying basic human biology and physiology and that just makes men and women different--not better, not worse, but DIFFERENT. Yes men say "shelo asani isha"--but that wasn't intended to put women DOWN. Men say that because they have more mitzvos, but women can counter that they don't NEED more mitzvos-- I am SOO glad that I did not have to daven b'tzibbur, b'zmano with tallis and tefillin when I was expecting. Or trying to daven when I have a few spare minutes while watching my toddler--especially if he would suddenly have a dirty diaper and I would have to unwind them to change the diaper and then put them back on. I'm glad that by my staying home I make it possible for my DH to perform the mitzvah with peace of mind and clarity and then I get part of that mitzvah--Ishto k'gufo.
Maariv is a minhag. A halachically binding minhag, women do not generally say maariv because as a whole women did not take on that minhag. Though there is nothing wrong with women davening maariv and women have a long history of of davening maariv.
On the other hand there's havdalah which is not clear if women are allowed to say it because it is a time bound mitzvah, but it's part of Shabbos, there are different opinions about whether or not a woman should make havdalah for herself unless absolutely necessary because we are worried about saying HaShem's name in vain. Whenever a mitzvah involving a bracha is involved it gets complicated whether or not a woman should perform it.
Tallis and tefillin have a bracha along with them--only wear them during the day, they are time bound mitzvot so women are not obligated. (with maariv there is no "asher kidishanu...v'tzivanu". In general women only perform time-bound mitzvot if they were "part of a miracle" associated with it.

Thus since historically, there is no mesora of women wearing tallis and tefillin (with the possible exception of daughters of Rashi--but there's no proof), and in general in Judaism we are wary of diverting from mesora, that's why this seems strange.

I'm sorry I don't have exact quotes for all of my sources--no I did not learn shulchan aruch inside, not my tafkid, but I have had many wonderful teachers, and I have read a lot, and I have discussed a lot with my husband whom I enable to go learn.

BlueRose52

Sun, Apr 28 2013, 11:41 pm

poelmamosh wrote:

The Torah I learn is rich with female role models who were most certainly not secondary to their male counterparts...

Indeed. And it's also full of stories and teachings of blatant gender discrimination. Are you aware that there's a pasuk in the torah that describes cutting off a woman's hand if she defends her husband in a fight by grabbing his assailant's private parts?

(And by the way, the Torah is also full of stories of women (and men) who defied the norms of society and did all sorts of things that wouldn't be acceptable today, but chas v'shalom that we should look to those women as role models!)

poelmamosh wrote:

I am seriously trying to understand how any woman buys into a religion that she is convinced is biased against her.

And I've always been baffled how women are so eager to avoid seeing the discrimination that is right in front of their eyes. Well, not really. I used to think like that too, so it's actually totally understandable to me.

Maybe this will help you understand another perspective: I don't see these aspects of Judaism as inherent to our tradition. I see them as the parts of our tradition that were meant for a different era, and are supposed to be left behind through the evolving nature of our tradition.

Now, before you jump down my throat that this is total kefira and I'm sounding like a reform rebbetzin, keep in mind that slavery was once the norm and there are laws in the Torah for it, and genocide and rape were acceptable tactics in war and there are laws for those things too, but despite these things being in the Torah, we don't live by those standards anymore. I see these patriarchal laws in the same light, reflecting how society functioned back then, but not something we need to aspire to in our own era. I understand that this might be hard to swallow. But consider this: the Torah also says the punishment for a rapist is 50 shekels (to the girl's father) and the obligation to marry her (if she consents). Do you find it difficult saying that that's clearly a law applicable to a certain society and a certain time and not relevant anymore? I don't.

The truth is, it doesn't bother me at all if you don't view these issues as I do. If you have your own way of reconciling the many ways Jewish tradition treats women as second-class, that's totally fine with me. Honestly. But please, let's not pretend that these things doesn't exist.

bamamama

Mon, Apr 29 2013, 12:09 am

bamamama wrote:

PinkFridge wrote:

bamamama wrote:

celestial wrote:

Ok, I'm going to start a new thread on the History of Apologetics for Women's Roles in Judaism - I found an interesting source.

BlueRose52

Mon, Apr 29 2013, 2:01 am

poelmamosh wrote:

BlueRose: As to the first part of your post, I mentioned women who crossed gender norms, so I'm not sure why you think I disregard them. As to the second...well, in short: I believe that Torah hashkafa creates reality, not that it must conform to our perceptions of it. It is evident to me that contemporary society has hardly succeeded in solving all of its own problems, so I refuse to hold up my own life (and religion) to be seen through its lens.

As I also said in my previous post, the inconsistencies we experience in the Torah lifestyle today are a result of galus and our own short-sidedness, as a whole.

Can you please explain how the Torah's rule that a woman is not trusted to be a witness is a result of galus or our own short-sidedness?

celestial

Mon, Apr 29 2013, 8:53 am

BlueRose52 wrote:

poelmamosh wrote:

The Torah I learn is rich with female role models who were most certainly not secondary to their male counterparts...

poelmamosh wrote:

I am seriously trying to understand how any woman buys into a religion that she is convinced is biased against her.

Excellent post, BlueRose! Exactly what I would have said if I got here first Smile

celestial

Mon, Apr 29 2013, 8:59 am

miami85 wrote:

my sons are also proud to say the bracha "sh'asani kirtzono". --May I ask why?

I wasn't condemning the practice I was merely asking the OP why she feels that this is an appropriate step for her?

Maybe you can begin by explaining why it is INapprorpiate?

Quote:

I feel that egalitarianism is denying basic human biology and physiology and that just makes men and women different--not better, not worse, but DIFFERENT. Yes men say "shelo asani isha"--but that wasn't intended to put women DOWN. Men say that because they have more mitzvos, but women can counter that they don't NEED more mitzvos-- I am SOO glad that I did not have to daven b'tzibbur, b'zmano with tallis and tefillin when I was expecting. Or trying to daven when I have a few spare minutes while watching my toddler--especially if he would suddenly have a dirty diaper and I would have to unwind them to change the diaper and then put them back on. I'm glad that by my staying home I make it possible for my DH to perform the mitzvah with peace of mind and clarity and then I get part of that mitzvah--Ishto k'gufo.
Maariv is a minhag. A halachically binding minhag, women do not generally say maariv because as a whole women did not take on that minhag. Though there is nothing wrong with women davening maariv and women have a long history of of davening maariv.
On the other hand there's havdalah which is not clear if women are allowed to say it because it is a time bound mitzvah, but it's part of Shabbos, there are different opinions about whether or not a woman should make havdalah for herself unless absolutely necessary because we are worried about saying HaShem's name in vain. Whenever a mitzvah involving a bracha is involved it gets complicated whether or not a woman should perform it.
Tallis and tefillin have a bracha along with them--only wear them during the day, they are time bound mitzvot so women are not obligated. (with maariv there is no "asher kidishanu...v'tzivanu". In general women only perform time-bound mitzvot if they were "part of a miracle" associated with it.

Some women are not overjoyed to change diapers.
Egalitarianism serves to broaden what is expected of both men AND women, because not everyone fits into a nice and neat little box as defined by their biology. Egalitarianism invites men or women to have non-traditional opportunities AVAILABLE to them if they so CHOOSE to partake. So in terms of halacha - if something is not binding unto women, but available to them, that doesn't affect YOUR life at all, since you are apparently so deeply at peace with your "role". The only people it affects are the men and/or women who are interested. So if a couple wants to take turns davening maariv while the other one is on diaper duty, why is this so threatening to you, exactly? And who but Hashem knows if either one of their kavanna is pure? I'll give you a hint - it's not you.

PinkFridge

Mon, Apr 29 2013, 10:09 am

Thanks, Bamamama, look forward to seeing your thread. (But ham-handed? How about marbled brisket-handed? Tongue Out

)

I don't think I would accuse anyone here of kefira. But some posts, and yes, posters (plural, no 20 questions please) make me wonder why they stick around. Personally, for me, that we have produced a Rav Grossman of Migdal Haemek shlit"a (I was going to provide a link but just go to Google) is enough to make me proud to an MOT. I think I'm going to start a new thread.

Yes, maybe I'm avoiding the elephant in the room, the role of women, but there is so much good, and so much "Torah doesn't kill people, people kill people"* out there that I can't help but be upbeat.

*What I mean is, as we keep going deeper and deeper into galus, there is so much that can make us cynical but I don't encounter it in people honestly using Torah but from people [/b]ab[b]using the Torah. Naval b'rshus haTorah and beyond type of stuff.

Merrymom

Mon, Apr 29 2013, 1:02 pm

BlueRose52 wrote:

poelmamosh wrote:

Can you please explain how the Torah's rule that a woman is not trusted to be a witness is a result of galus or our own short-sidedness?

We've discussed this topic before but here goes again. I for one would never trust a woman to be a witness. If women can stay in abusive relationships and sacrifice their own children and lie for their husbands when threatened, I don't want a woman like that being a witness to anything. I think, yes there are many many weak and gullible women (in my personal experience) and unfortunately some of us are going to pay the price for that. Before you talk about the mens' faults now, you should also know that they are subject to extreme standards. In fact there's hardly a man today who would qualify as a kosher witness. One lie to anyone anywhere (unrelated to bais din) and he no longer can be a witness.

As for the point you brought up earlier. Many topics in the gemara are only theoretical, a ben sorer u'morer for example. Another is for women to get aliyos. Since it's not tznius it's never going to happen, it doesn't matter if in theory it's permitted.

As for your story about cutting off a woman's hand, I think you have our religion confused with Islam, but if you can prove me wrong by quoting your source I'd be happy to look it up.

As to the rapist, no women is expected or encouraged to marry a rapist. The halacha only is putting requirements on him if the woman insists on marrying him. Probably another theoretical discussion that never happened I imagine. As for the 50 shekel (if it is that amount), you have no idea what that amount was worth at the time, for all you know that was worth $100,000 in those days. Maybe I'm being naive but I imagine issues like rape and certainly molestation were not the issues that they are today. It's probably a sign of the times that we live in such a degenerate generation where so many people are victims of s*xual crimes. I highly doubt that in the days of ruach hakodesh and the bais hamikdash these were common issues that had to be grappled with.

Merrymom

Mon, Apr 29 2013, 1:12 pm

celestial wrote:

miami85 wrote:

my sons are also proud to say the bracha "sh'asani kirtzono". --May I ask why?

I wasn't condemning the practice I was merely asking the OP why she feels that this is an appropriate step for her?

Maybe you can begin by explaining why it is INapprorpiate?

Quote:

Not every woman has a diaper to change, even so she does not need to daven maariv although she probably would be encouraged to if she had the time. Her dh otoh needs to. Men in general fall alot further when they're not immersed in torah learning and prayer. That's just the facts, when men are idle they're more likely to sin so they are given alot more obligations to keep them on the straight and narrow, so to speak.

bamamama

Mon, Apr 29 2013, 1:14 pm

Merrymom wrote:

Sorry, Merrymom, human weakness does not negate ability to be a witness. We are all human - men and women alike, and we all have strengths and weaknesses. I won't allow my daughter to be condemned by you (and whoever shares your view) as weak and gullible.