When is it abuse? | Imamother

amother

Wed, Jul 17 2013, 6:26 am

Where is the line between molestation and experimentation? Is it called molestation when a 9 year old girl touches her 8 year old brother's private? What if they were friends? What about if the brother and sister were a little older? Is it molestation if a 4th grade boy tells his friend to touch his pen*s in the locker room? What about two 12 year old girls touching each other's developing breasts?

We all hopefully know it's molestation if an adult (over 18?) touches a child much younger but what if they are kids?
Just wondering where is the line drawn between molestation and normal experimentation?

FranticFrummie

Wed, Jul 17 2013, 6:36 am

Generally, if there is a significant age gap, or one child is clearly in power over the other, then it is abuse. A 14yo babysitter and a 12 yo child, for example, is a power situation. A child who is significantly taller and stronger than a small, shy kid is another power example. If one child is above puberty age and one is below, that is abuse.

imasinger

Wed, Jul 17 2013, 6:51 am

IMO, it is called inappropriate at any time, molestation when at least one party doesn't want it. People should be teaching their kids when and how to say no.

From preschool age, children should be taught that they have private parts that are not to be seen or touched outside of parental supervision and permission. (Yes, doctor, yes grandparent giving bath; no, sibling or friends). Mild transgressions ("Mom! Little Sarah took of her PJ's and has nothing on!") should be handled with mild reminders of the rules, including the rule to tell a parent if the rule gets broken.

If you are asking how to handle a situation where a child between 7 and 12 is touched or shown a private part, and has told you, I'd say to contact the appropriate authority -- school administrator, other parent -- and don't worry about whether to term it molestation at first, as long as it stops immediately. If it doesn't, it is molestation and should be treated seriously, IMO.

5*Mom

Wed, Jul 17 2013, 7:29 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

I'll add any time one party feels pressured, threatened (physically, socially or emotionally) or is otherwise unable to say no, regardless of age difference.

FranticFrummie

Wed, Jul 17 2013, 7:35 am

Kids over age 6 or 7 should be VERY clear on what is right and wrong, even with someone their own age, even with their best friend or close sibling. Privates mean PRIVATE!

In a case that seem to be a gray area, your child should be taken to a therapist for evaluation. If it's a more clear case, then by all means REPORT IT!

I'm not talking about "punishing a criminal", I'm talking about getting desperately needed help for both children involved. Let the social workers and therapists work out if there is actually a crime happening or not.

One sure way to know if something fishy is going on, is when you open the door and the two parties jump a mile and then look very embarrassed or scared. That means that they do know right from wrong, and they need HELP.

amother

Wed, Jul 17 2013, 7:46 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

idk... when I was little my sisters and I would play "doctor" which often involved showing our privates. I don't think any of us were traumatized or, now that we're all grown up, think we were molested. we definitely knew it wasn't right, but I don't think any of us needed HELP.

5*Mom

Wed, Jul 17 2013, 7:49 am

imasinger wrote:

IMO, it is called inappropriate at any time, molestation when at least one party doesn't want it. People should be teaching their kids when and how to say no.

This is a pet project of mine. People should be teaching their kids when and how and that it is okay to say no to children and ADULTS whenever they feel uncomfortable -- not only when bodies are involved. Teaching children that they must obey adults sets them up for disaster. Far preferable to teach children how to recognize when an adult is trustworthy and cares for them and has their interests in mind and when they don't. Of course, you have to be ready for your children to question you and even talk back a bit while they are learning the ropes. Unfortunately, not enough people are.

FranticFrummie

Wed, Jul 17 2013, 7:58 am

amother wrote:

FranticFrummie wrote:

You may not have been traumatized or need professional help, but you certainly needed help in knowing that you were supposed to keep your panties on. Private means private at any age.

amother

Wed, Jul 17 2013, 9:51 am

5*Mom wrote:

imasinger wrote:

IMO, it is called inappropriate at any time, molestation when at least one party doesn't want it. People should be teaching their kids when and how to say no.

I told this to my dc when I saw them doing something inappropriate, and their answer was that it wasn't uncomfortable. What to say when they like it?

amother

Wed, Jul 17 2013, 9:53 am

OP here- I am really surprised by the responses here. I think even a 5 year old would be embarrassed if they were caught with their pants down but I don't think it would be any cause for alarm whatsoever. I think it is normal behavior to explore in that way. I would think it is abuse only when one of the parties involved is doing TO the other party something s@xual. As in 14 yr old babysitter TO 10 yr old. That means the initiator needs to have the knowledge of s@xual behavior. In other words it has to be at an age where there is an understanding of what s@x is.

5*Mom

Wed, Jul 17 2013, 10:01 am

amother wrote:

5*Mom wrote:

imasinger wrote:

IMO, it is called inappropriate at any time, molestation when at least one party doesn't want it. People should be teaching their kids when and how to say no.

I told this to my dc when I saw them doing something inappropriate, and their answer was that it wasn't uncomfortable. What to say when they like it?

(That wasn't the point I was making but never mind; your question is excellent!)

Physical touch is physically pleasurable under most circumstances. Children will often enjoy it. When we teach our children what the boundaries are, we make the red lines very clear, period. Because those body parts are private, we neither touch nor allow ourselves to be touched there.

[What I was referring to was more like when a teacher or other adult is nasty or sarcastic with a child, it is okay and even good for a child to respectfully but assertively stand up for himself.]

amother

Wed, Jul 17 2013, 10:04 am

5*Mom wrote:

amother wrote:

5*Mom wrote:

imasinger wrote:

IMO, it is called inappropriate at any time, molestation when at least one party doesn't want it. People should be teaching their kids when and how to say no.

I told this to my dc when I saw them doing something inappropriate, and their answer was that it wasn't uncomfortable. What to say when they like it?

Then my dc said that they don't understand what's so wrong with it.

5*Mom

Wed, Jul 17 2013, 10:05 am

amother wrote:

5*Mom wrote:

amother wrote:

5*Mom wrote:

imasinger wrote:

IMO, it is called inappropriate at any time, molestation when at least one party doesn't want it. People should be teaching their kids when and how to say no.

I told this to my dc when I saw them doing something inappropriate, and their answer was that it wasn't uncomfortable. What to say when they like it?

Then my dc said that they don't understand what's so wrong with it.

How old?

5*Mom

Wed, Jul 17 2013, 10:26 am

amother wrote:

12. I got scared and spoke to a social worker and told her all the details. She said it's probably okay. But I'm still worried.

Hmm. Do you think he really doesn't understand? Or is he just challenging you?

I'd venture to say that most if not all typically developing 12 year olds understand what private body parts are and why it is not okay to touch or be touched at that age. If yours truly does not, perhaps this is part of a larger developmental issue that should be addressed by a professional.

If your child is challenging you, very common at this age, you might want to think about why? Did you overreact and freak out? More than likely, your 12 year old is looking for more information about s*x. It is far better for him to get it from a parent -- assuming a parent is capable of providing age-appropriate factual information while remaining calm -- than from alternative sources.

amother

Wed, Jul 17 2013, 11:14 am

Lots of kids explore their body parts with siblings close in age, like when they play "doctor." We also did, my sister and I. We both consider ourselves healthy and normal and did not need therapy or whatnot. We knew it was a little weird because we didn't do it with any grownups around, but what's the big deal? It's part of child's play and that's it. Once we reached puberty we grew up and that was that.

seeker

Wed, Jul 17 2013, 11:16 am

I think there are two separate teaching points here:
1. Don't let anyone do things to you that make you uncomfortable. If they do anyway, tell.
2. There are some things that are not OK to do. Don't do them. Even if you "like" it. We don't always do everything we like, some things are not OK.

Dolly Welsh

Wed, Jul 17 2013, 11:46 am

Nobody under the age of 18 can legally consent. That doesn't mean they won't. It means they don't get it, about the sovereign envelope of personal body integrity. The developmental maturity just isn't there.

They may not mean any harm.

And people endlessly do what they aren't supposed to do, but it is defined, gently, as what they are not supposed to do.

So, we teach.

It's just another thing we are here to teach.

The [inappropriate] aspects of your body are yours alone, and you will use them socially after you are 18, maritally. So no, they shouldn't grab you, and you can't grab them.

Breaches of this doctrine are not the end of the world, necessarily, but they are defined as not ok.

It is probably better to emphasize the positive, that your body is your own, rather than to emphasize the negative about how you shouldn't do this or that.

amother

Wed, Jul 17 2013, 12:10 pm

When dd was 4 she was playing by a neighbor. The 7 yr old older brother locked her and friend in a room and insisted dd pull down her pants. She kept saying her mother doesn't let. He threatened to beat her up if she didn't listen. She she listened and he put his hand by her tush. She then got dressed and came home.
She told me what happened, I had a long talk with her, explained what HE did was wrong, she was right to tell me, etc.
now honestly this was probably an "anise" situation since he was older, but these kids were really little. I can't imagine this 7 year old really knew what he was doing. I consulted with a school psychologist and social worker and followed their advice on dealing with dd. but I'd probably refer to this as highly inappropriate play/behavior as opposed to abuse, since he was so young.

chani8

Wed, Jul 17 2013, 12:19 pm

amother wrote:

Sorry, amother, this was clearly molestation. That 7 year old has serious problems.