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-> Interesting Discussions
avigayil
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 Thu, Nov 17 2005, 9:39 pm
I know of 1 local plumbing compnay (non-Jew) that is father and daughter operated. If a woman goes into the construction or fixing trades, she has pretty much kissed the chances of having pretty, soft skin bye-bye.
Also, for doctors I prefer to have female...especially THAT ONE!
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Tefila
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Tue, Dec 19 2006, 11:14 pm
| Quote: | | Since my husband is the proverbial 'can't change a light bulb' do you think that my being handy is unappealing??? Unappealing to me? Of course not, just like people get satisfaction from a delicious meal, or a beautiful dress, I get satisfaction from fixing something broken. Most people get satisfaction from a job well done. |
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creativemommyto3
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Wed, Dec 20 2006, 2:20 am
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To me these "Womanly Arts" are my expression of me . When I express my creativity it rejuvenates me enough to get creative in the things that I have to do. In fact, doing needlework, sewing , cooking, baking, writing, cake decorating, photography etc. is my way of taking care of myself. When I do these things I don't feel resentful of what I have to do b/c I see that I am being taken care of too.
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Ruchel
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Wed, Dec 20 2006, 11:47 am
Although home products are nice, I personally don’t really care as long as it is good.
I think womanly arts are useful, but if it is quicker or more practical to buy it all finished, I say go for it.
Women who like cooking, sewing… should absolutely go on doing it! It is great. Personally, though, it is not really my cup of tea and I prefer other pastimes, and if I had to practice womanly arts I wouldn’t have time for what I like. Now, I love decorating my house. I am sure that here again it is all cultural and what you witnessed at home (and personal taste).
I also find that unless you are a seamstress, clothes you buy are nicer than clothes you make yourself. Sometimes people have to acknowledge it, especially if their children come home saying the other kids made comments.
My two grandfathers were in clothes, one of my grandmothers, one of my great grandmothers, my own father before he retired. My other grandma can sew very well, my mother not so much, me even less. I can probably deal with a button or something that ripped, but in a totally non beautiful way. It is not my job or something I learned from my parents, so that’s it. As for cooking, I’ll have to ask dh to teach me! 
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Ruchel
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Wed, Dec 20 2006, 11:48 am
| Quote: | | In fact my husband sews torn stuff coz I have no clue. Or I will wait for my mum to come over and get her to sew stuff. |
Same here, I would ask dad, then husband, then mom. At least, men learn the basics of sewing & cooking & cleaning during military service. I’m wondering if dh would be able to sew or knit something for our future baby. That would be cute!
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I did not like in school how they saw it as a girl's place to learn these things. There are loads of chefs. So cookery isn't a woman's art. Sewing, most famous designers are male. So to call it a woman's art? |
I agree. My mom had it at school too, and didn’t like the idea either. Now, if everyone learned it, then it would be great.
| Quote: | | As for individuality, there are loads of ways to show that. |
Agree
| Quote: | | the designers DESIGN, and don't sew! |
Most of the time they don’t begin at the “top” of the business and they definitely do the clothes themselves. In fact as far as I know they even begin by just sew small stuff (sew the zipper to the jacket), then it gets bigger and bigger and if they’re talented they can stop working for their boss and open their own firm.
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Ruchel
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Wed, Dec 20 2006, 11:49 am
| Quote: | | although some husbands cook, wouldn't you agree that the vast majority of husbands don't regularly make supper and Shabbos and Yom Tov meals? |
I agree, although my dad made all the meals every day and shabbes/yomtov meals are always made by dh.
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if the goal is to make our children feel nurtured and loved, there are many ways to do that. I can read to my kids and spend time with them, or anything else that I enjoy doing. if I would feel obligated to cook and sew, my children would not feel loved. they would feel resentment radiating out of me. |
I agree. And unless all their friends have home made things, I don’t think kids care so much. I personally like to know something is home made when it is, but apart from that…
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regarding the home being the women's responsibility while the men must learn etc., I have to say that I think it is disgusting when I see the sons of the family sitting like kings being served by their sisters and mother slaving away in the kitchen. it is not even as if these boys are taking a brief breather from the hard work of torah study... usually they are no more occupied in their studies than the girls are. sometimes less. |
True
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anyone else out there in a similar boat? |
Yes, when I was in hs I wished I could skip what I didn’t like. I don’t think I gained anything from geometry and other “immaterial” things in every day life. Science (physics, biology, chemistry…) is good for general knowledge and very interesting imho. I would have liked more useful courses too. Literature, foreign languages, history, politics… anything, but not multi unknown equations and the like.
Now, at least, “boring” stuff like geometry, trig… makes you think hard and develops your intellectual abilities. This is what learning is for. So no, I wouldn’t have liked to house cleaning… - especially if it was a course deemed “girls only”.
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Ruchel
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Wed, Dec 20 2006, 11:51 am
| Quote: |
students, or their parents, should be the ones to choose how to best spend the childhood / teenage years. |
I would have loved it. But I would probably be a big ignoramus if I had been allowed to choose. When would people start to learn? When they’re mature… unfortunately, it is the time when they need to work to support a family.
| Quote: | | I personally feel that I would rather spend time with my kids then using that time to bake something for them, when I could easily buy it for them. of course it is really nice to have something made especially for them, so I would let mine join in the baking. but I dont think " bkaing , cooking, luandry are what make a good mother." |
Same.
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I have a great relationship with my mom, and she didnt bake me anything. |
Same. She made my meals when I was very young, and I don’t even remember it…
| Quote: | | I'm good at fixing things, anything that breaks gets left for me and after fiddling with it for a while I can usually fix it. |
Me too. Computer, tv remote control, light bulb, watch with tons of weird functions, dvd recorder… all good for me. As a kid I waited for dad to be home, then I decided it was annoying and I took the matter in my own hands.
| Quote: |
Ever notice that everything is "women's work" till it becomes a big moneymaker? then it becomes men's work. Sewing is women's work, but most of the big-name coutouriers were men. Cooking is women's work, but most of the big-name chefs are men. Taking care of the sick is women's work, but most of the big-name doctors are men. |
True!
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Ruchel
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Wed, Dec 20 2006, 11:53 am
| Quote: |
and what do you posters think - would you have as much confidence in a female plumber or washing machine repairman as you would a male? |
Yes, if she had the same experience.
| Quote: | | when it comes to doctors, many women prefer male doctors |
I prefer females especially if they have to touch me, but I will always choose the best one.
| Quote: | | and on her head? a snood? sheitel? workman's cap on sheitel? |
Anything that won’t move. A very tight bandana could do. Not to mention some women wear just a... cap 
| Quote: | | Does anybody here think there is something unappealing about women being mechanics and electricians? Unappealing to her husband, perhaps. |
It would depend on his personality.
| Quote: | | Unappealing for herself since the nature of these jobs is unfeminine? |
If she is attracted to the job, it won’t bother her if she doesn’t fit the “feminine job” stereotype.
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what do you think of the avodas perach that the Egyptians made the Jews do, switching male and female jobs? Do you think that doesn't apply today? |
It was forced, so it was awful. Here it would be the person’s choice. I know families where the husband is a stay at home dad and the mom works. Unless the guy feels insecure in his masculinity or the woman is forced to work, it doesn’t seem to be a problem.
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why is pulling a wire out of a wall less appealing than pulling a tendon out of a chicken leg? |
If you give me the choice, I would be less repulsed by the first one. I can’t stand tendons and generally I can't deal with non cooked meat.
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amother
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Wed, Dec 20 2006, 12:46 pm
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my garndmother sewed all her kids clothes. they were not home all day. this was 25 years ago.
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greenfire
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Wed, Dec 20 2006, 1:32 pm
THE POWER OF THE FLOWER
When you need the strength of a man with the detail of a woman
You like - I like. I do anything that needs to be done. Fix the toilet, roof, cut down a tree, give a kid a haircut, make them cookies, sew a hem, sand a floor, paint a house, put up a sukkah, make some homemade pizza or quiche or..., change the starter in my dryer, etc., etc., etc.....
Oh and I'll do it for you too - for $$
BTW I can't draw and I don't do windows (fix yes wash no)
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Marion
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Thu, Dec 21 2006, 1:52 am
I bake and sew. I bake better than I sew, but I do both. Why?
1. I'm not a standard size. My body is not a standard proportion. What I make fits me; what I buy frequently does not (nicely). I hate shopping because I can rarely find something that really flatters. Why spend money on something that looks only half as good as it could?
2. I bake because I enjoy it. Now I also bake because we have food issues (DH is gluten free and I'm nut/peanut free) and it's not easy to find nutless-gluten-free baked goods. I bake because what I can turn out is not the same as what I can buy. (I haven't yet seen gingersnaps anywhere except one store that imports them from the US, and I can make them for a lot less than 16 shekel a pound!)
I didn't do the baking I wanted to do for this Chanukah because I just didn't have the time...and I missed it. So tonight, after the baby's in bed, DH and I are going to bake. We did 15 dozen gingersnaps on Monday night (Chanukah present for MIL), and we'll do some sugar cookies and some GF brownies tonight. Then we'll do some more tomorrow morning...we're making kiddush for the shul at our place on Shabbat so I need to bake!
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amother
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Thu, Dec 21 2006, 2:46 am
| Ruchel wrote: |
Now, at least, “boring” stuff like geometry, trig… makes you think hard and develops your intellectual abilities. This is what learning is for. |
As a geometry and trigonometry teacher, I must chime in here!  When I teach (frum high school girls), I find ways to make the math they learn both fun and relevant. We connect geometry to all kinds of arts, architecture, etc. and I help them see where the principles show up in daily life. There are also lots of connections between geometry and Torah (there is a derivation of pi in the Talmud, for example), and we learn those. When we do proofs, it's to learn how to think logically, and believe it or not, creatively.
Both geometry and trigonometry show the beauty, symmetry, order, logic, and unity of Hashem's creation!! My students get all that while becoming experts at the math concepts themselves, because I know who my students are and I know how to teach them.
Most people had math teachers who just taught how to do math, if they even got that across successfully. Most math teachers damage their students' confidence in themselves rather than empowering them with the belief that they are capable of higher level thinking. I never liked that approach when I was a student, so when I became a teacher I re-invented what teaching math is all about.
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Ruchel
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Thu, Dec 21 2006, 10:32 am
| amother wrote: | | Ruchel wrote: |
Now, at least, “boring” stuff like geometry, trig… makes you think hard and develops your intellectual abilities. This is what learning is for. |
As a geometry and trigonometry teacher, I must chime in here! When I teach (frum high school girls), I find ways to make the math they learn both fun and relevant. We connect geometry to all kinds of arts, architecture, etc. and I help them see where the principles show up in daily life. There are also lots of connections between geometry and Torah (there is a derivation of pi in the Talmud, for example), and we learn those. When we do proofs, it's to learn how to think logically, and believe it or not, creatively.
Both geometry and trigonometry show the beauty, symmetry, order, logic, and unity of Hashem's creation!! My students get all that while becoming experts at the math concepts themselves, because I know who my students are and I know how to teach them.
Most people had math teachers who just taught how to do math, if they even got that across successfully. Most math teachers damage their students' confidence in themselves rather than empowering them with the belief that they are capable of higher level thinking. I never liked that approach when I was a student, so when I became a teacher I re-invented what teaching math is all about. |
kol ha kavod!!!!
Too bad I didn't have a teacher like you!! 
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JRKmommy
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Thu, Dec 21 2006, 10:49 am
I take a fairly utilitarian view of these things.
My mother possessed very little ability in the "womanly arts" herself, but made up for it by finding people who did. So, she made a decent living as a teacher, which is where her genuine talents lie, and found the best places to buy ready-made food, used a local seamstress, had a cleaning lady, and generally knew how to find people who had the skills she lacked. I learned from her.
Cooking? Yes, I think it's somewhat important, because you often need to do some basic cooking if you want kosher, healthy and affordable food for your family. I do think that some basic shopping, meal planning and simple cooking skills need to be taught in schools, because bad nutrition IS a major health concern today. Many process foods are loaded with trans-fats, MSG, high-fructose corn syrup, excess sodium, and very little nutrition. I don't have any problem, however, with buying items which fit the kosher/healthy/affordable criteria and happen to save time along the way. I remember our nanny being amazed that I had tons of quick ways to do things (apparently in Hong Kong, cooking was an all-day process).
I also differentiate between doing what's necessary to provide kosher/healthy/affordable meals for my family, and the effort that I put in and pride that I take in my cooking. My kids honestly don't care how much time and effort something takes. Fancy presentation doesn't impress them - they just concentrate on whether the ketchup is touching the chicken. I happen to like doing some cooking, and appreciate good food, but I realize that's MY enjoyment, period. My kids like helping, to a certain extent, with Shabbos cooking, but they couldn't care less that the brownies come from a mix, or that the matzo balls come from a mix, or that the chicken soup for the matzo balls comes from a can. In plain English - I can't let my ego get involved in their food preferences. I know that I can spend lots of time cooking something, only to have my kids take a bite, wrinkle their noses, and ask for cereal instead.
Dh and I have a certain relative who is "ego-involved" in her food. She'd basically tower over us and say "YOU LIKE THE FISH?" while giving us her homemade gefilte fish - the kind which is surrounded by jelly-like stuff. No one dared to tell her to her face that we hated it - I just confessed it to my dh when we got engaged!
Sewing? It's a skill. I don't happen to have that particular skill at all, but appreciate that some people do. I did take sewing at school - but it was fairly obvious that I'd never make anything that was wearable. I don't have a problem contracting out this particular task.
Other handiwork? I'm horrible, I know, but I'm lacking the gene for appreciation of this stuff. When I'm presented with something handmade, a little voice in the back of my head has to say, "Smile, say thank you, and make it look genuine because someone worked hard on this and is proud of it."
Women's stuff/men's stuff: My father and my FIL are both better cooks than either my mother or my MIL, and they enjoy cooking more as well. My dad is, by nature, a clean and organized person, while my mom is more like me - so dad ended up doing a fair bit of cooking and cleaning when we were growing up.
When dh and I first got married, I thought that men have the "fix and assemble" gene. Well, my dh doesn't. It led to some real frustration until we both realized that, while I'm not great at it, I do have more skill in this area. For major stuff, we get professionals, but the minor stuff (assembling BBQ, assembling baby gear, hanging pictures, changing light bulbs, fixing toilets) is my department.
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faigie
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Thu, Dec 21 2006, 11:54 am
what can I tell you, my mom invited the local take out person to all our simchas, they became THAT close over the years LOL
that being said, I can also tell you that she is an amazing business lady and lecturer....... bah....... and is still booked ahead a year in her 80s bah she should live and be well.
I love to cook. I dont have a zillion great recipes, but the little I do have I enjoy doing.
im always on the look out for the best recipe for a certian type of dish.etc
I can make a hem!
cleaning I learned late in life, and organizing im working on,,,,,,,, hey being dyslexic didnt help! took me 6 months to learn how to sort laundary at a decent pace!
fly lady was a bracha for me!
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red sea
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Sun, Mar 16 2008, 5:45 pm
First of all homemade food rocks! If you are taught a love of cooking and baking you are lucky & the food is so much better than take out.
Sewing is great, if only Americans knew how to sew like Koreans, man, the nice clothing I could have.
Its a shame its lost, but for the majority that I know it is lost. Oh well, its hard to get back and frustrating/waste of time once you are an adult and cant afford the time or money to expose yourself to things that might change that.
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bigdeal
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Sun, Mar 16 2008, 5:50 pm
hmmmm.. today womanly arts in my house were given over to my paid help ( [gentile woman] if you will....) she cleaned, sewed a hem for my dd, and peeled potatoes I was using for a kugel that I offered to make for somone today... Hows THAT for womanly arts?????
However, I would say that the arts in general have evolved and today much more is accepted as form of art-
freelance
poetry
singing
dancing
aerobics
writing classes
pottery
music classes
there is an adult group of married women in my area who go for voice lessons every Tuesday nite......
so women ( should) do WHATEVEr they gotta do to feel good about themselves
Now I should practice what I preach and learn the womanly art of working out my majorly womanly shape and getting it to agym pronto!!!!!!
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momto7
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Tue, Jul 01 2008, 6:30 pm
| GR wrote: | | I dont think schools should be abolished. I think they should be changed. I dont know why kids must be in school 8 hours a day every day. and the curriculum.... I think every semester the subjects should change completely. (not hebrew ones, of course) if there is change every semester, you can learn a little bit of every type of subject. |
I believe you would change your mind very quickly would you move to Israel.
The kids are home by 2.
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Motek
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Tue, Jul 01 2008, 8:20 pm
| bigdeal wrote: | However, I would say that the arts in general have evolved and today much more is accepted as form of art-
freelance
poetry
singing
dancing
aerobics
writing classes
pottery
music classes
there is an adult group of married women in my area who go for voice lessons every Tuesday nite......
so women ( should) do WHATEVEr they gotta do to feel good about themselves |
Was that the point of the womanly arts, that women should feel good about themselves? I thought that these arts were meant for her to create a home, for her to be what used to be called a "homemaker."
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ihyphenated
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Tue, Jul 22 2008, 1:16 am
they arent just womanly arts.
they are household necessities- and my husband and I make our home together- and we fix, clean, launder, cook, go grocery shopping and do dishes together or cooperatively.
I work FT. If we didnt do these things cooperatively, they would never get done, and either one of us would be too drained to function.
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