Is someone wrong here?

amother

Sat, Oct 26 2013, 11:47 pm

Annoying situation here and I just HAVE to know whether or not objective people see it the way I do. This is a recurring scene with only slight variations.

Background: Due to various (temporary, but a matter of years possibly) circumstances, a small young family spends a lot of time at their mother's house.
Setting: The mother's (/mil/grandmother to some) living room on a Shabbos afternoon. Mother, daughter, sil, and their small children are engaged in various activities such as reading and playing with toys.
Daughter turns to SIL (her husband), calls to him by name, and asks him a question. Nothing deeply personal, perhaps asking his opinion of something. Without missing a beat, Mother/MIL answers the question. SIL/husband remains quiet, having been pretty much shut out of the conversation.
Daughter: "Mom, I asked Husband, not you. I wanted to hear what HE would have said."
Mother: "It is my house and I can say whatever I want. You have no right to exclude me from a conversation in my own living room."

Are they both equally right? Or both wrong? I see both points of view but feel that one or the other has very poor manners in this situation (remember that it is a RECURRING scenario) If you think someone is more right or more wrong, who is it and what should they do instead?

amother

Sun, Oct 27 2013, 12:26 am

To clarify, the mother was not being excluded from general conversation. Isn't it OK in a group conversation to address a remark to an individual from time to time? I'm not talking about whispering or personal information, but if Miri, Suri, and Chani are all shmoozing, would it be inappropriate for Miri say "Suri, what do you think we should do for blah blah?" or "Chani, what did you think of the this or that?" Kal v'chomer if some of the people in the group conversation happen to be married to each other, or have some other connection that would make them better suited to answer a question like "Shall we go now?"

33055

Sun, Oct 27 2013, 1:12 am

amother wrote:

If it was a "just his opinion" question, I would acknowledge the Mom spoke and what she had to say. I would then ask the husband. This way both are included. The mother deserves respect and if it upsets her to be excluded in her own house than don't do it. BTW of she were in your home, I would still feel the same.

DrMom

Sun, Oct 27 2013, 4:22 am

I don't think the wife was "excluding" her MIL from the conversation by posing a question to her own husband.

Her answer to her MIL was very abrupt, though. She should have said something like, "Hmm.. interesting. So, what do you think, DH?" instead of the more confrontational "Mom, I asked DH, not you."

The MIL saw her DIL's remark as confrontational and bristled, thus escalating the situation.

amother

Sun, Oct 27 2013, 4:03 pm

OP here. I am the daughter in the situation, which I was trying to be vague about but was probably somewhat obvious. Glad to hear I'm not totally out of it for thinking mother is doing something wrong. Not surprised to hear that I have what to improve on, too.

Frumdoc, it is EVERYTHING. Obviously much much more irritating when it is the "put the kids to bed" variety. And generally if it's a news item I would address the question to the general audience and not to one specific.

The young family is not living with the mother but for various reasons we spend a lot of time there, many shabbosim and smaller visits in between though Shabbos ends up being the longest and often the most tense.

DH is a pacifist who hates to disagree with anyone so if mother speaks first, I will never find out what he really thought or would have said, even if I repeat the question privately later.

Siiiiigh. Will continue to practice nicer tones of response as suggested here... It gets really hard because she does this what feels like constantly and for various reasons we are unable to evade the situation entirely at this time (we are trying to look for better arrangements to suit our circumstance, but it is not working out, while meanwhile mother is alone and loves our company and is happy to have us... so, if her constant interference drives me crazy, whatever Sad

)

Dolly Welsh

Sun, Oct 27 2013, 7:22 pm

You shouldn't snap at your mother like that.

She should let somebody besides herself get a word in edgewise.

A situation with a man and two women in it requires particular graciousness toward the man.

This low level cat-fighting in front of him is not good for him, it does not respect him and weakens him. If he is looking for work, which you very vaguely might be implying, this won't help his confidence.

In general it isn't prudent to ask a man his opinion about something in front of another woman. It might come down to putting him on the spot. He might not especially want to share his opinion in front of that person, just with you, later, in private.

Your mom may not be quite well, meds, old age, that sort of thing.

Remind me to be a meek old lady. The assertive kind aren't so convenient sometimes and I want to be convenient.

It is sad. Your only recourse is to try not to turn into your mom. You sound somewhat assertive yourself.

You must be awfully bored. Maybe your husband should excuse himself and review his studies in the next room. Perhaps then there would be more peace between you and your mother. Sometimes women get competitive with each other when a male is present.

Then you could ask your mother about old stories from her youth. She would be the star then, and all might go smoother. It might be interesting, too. Better than this.

amother

Sun, Oct 27 2013, 8:43 pm

You really have me spooked with all that "two women and a man" analysis. Could be true but I think I was happier before I read it. Not that I was too happy with this situation at all, but you know...

My mother is quite fine, medically. She has always been like this. I had forgotten how annoying it was growing up, but it is ten times more annoying when you're married and trying to raise your family near her.

There is no peace between me and my mother when DH is not around. He just barely keeps things civil just by being there. And there would still be the kids, who are the biggest source of tension because she doesn't seem to deem me capable of raising them. When she's not outright criticizing, she's stepping in to do it her way WITH ME AND DH RIGHT THERE. Even silly little things like my DD asking me "Mommy, what are you doing?" my mother answers for me before I can even open my mouth. Even if there's nothing wrong with what she actually says, this behavior gets in the way of anyone around her having healthy interactions.

At this point you're all wondering why I don't just stay away but it's really complicated. We are trying but nothing is working out. I'm getting so depressed. We can't leave her town because we're stuck there for school and work purposes for at least the next couple of years. Within this town, we have our own place to live but it is really dinky and even worse currently has extremely noisy construction going on right next to it, so we try not to spend too much time there - over the summer we could spend a lot of time outdoors but as it gets colder we need more escape options. Plus, my kids are already very attached to my mother and she to them so I would feel bad and selfish to deprive everyone of such a happy, convenient relationship just to keep my own pride intact. We have been looking for a better apartment for ages but nothing has worked out. I feel so stuck. Money is a bit of an object but I long ago decided it would be worth paying more if we could get a better life out of it, but even with a much higher budget nothing became available. Sad

ElTam

Mon, Oct 28 2013, 12:53 am

I would give up anything not to live in this situation. Rebuild. Find a rota of friends you can go to for Shabbos. Move and restart elsewhere. It is not good for your marriage that your mother dictates when you and your DH can speak. How must he feel, that his needs are put behind a woman who is treating him with utter disrespect? For your sanity, and your shalom bayis, you have to change this. It is not good for your children to see their mother being disrespected. It is not good for their chinuch long-term and their attachment to her will undermine their relationship with you, which is exactly what she is aiming at, I would bet, consciously or unconsciously.

Get out. Move to another city. Do whatever you have to do. I understand you are trying to build something. But you are like the slaves in Mitzrayim, building on quicksand. What do you think will be left of your family when you have your degree (or whatever) and your money saved up?

amother

Mon, Oct 28 2013, 1:19 am

It's a lot easier said than done to scrap your entire life and start over, especially when you don't have your own money tree. Don't think we didn't consider it. We decided the evils of being frequently interrupted and heckled were still easier to deal with and more likely to succeed than starting over someplace else. Meanwhile, we continue to look for a better place to live locally. Bite your tongue a lot and live in a dumpy place, vs. find a new community, home, and job in the same different city and maybe state, move there, transfer school kid to new school, find new child care for baby, transfer school spouse to new school - sorting out different degree requirements, transfer job spouse to new job/boss/coworkers/expectations, set up new home, make new friends (while working/schooling/raising kids) and so on and so forth - for those crying "Aliyah!" add a new language and culture to the list (don't worry about new health care system, since we have to deal with that even staying put, thank you Mr. President). What's the contest? My mother is not evil incarnate, she is just really irritating. And B"H we don't live with her 24/7. I just wish she would get a life of her own and stop micromanaging mine. She does not understand the difference between loving concern and meddling. Her mother was the same way just with a LOT more tact, so she thinks this is normal and good. The difference is that her mother did not make you feel stupid and looked down on for not being perfect, she just informed you how to do things better in a non-judgy way. She also stayed quiet when other people conversed in her living room - in fact, I have many memories of hanging out in her living room with cousins shmoozing with each other while she just quietly served up the nosh.

DrMom

Mon, Oct 28 2013, 2:22 am

ElTam wrote:

This. Find some other people you can hang out with on Shabbat afternoon besides your in-laws. If you can't invite friends over on Shabbat afternoon due to construction noise, invite them over on Friday night, and perhaps they will extend an invitation for another Shabbat afternoon. Establish a goal whereby you spend x number of shabbat afternoons at your in-laws per month -- and no more than that.

Alternative coping strategy: Find you mother-in-law some friends so she doesn't expend so much time and energy irritating your family.

Frumdoc

Mon, Oct 28 2013, 4:04 am

It sounds like spending time with her is intolerable, and you are never going to change her.

I'd support the suggestions above, to either find somewhere else to go shabbos afternoon or stay at home.

If your home is so awful, you either have to put some work into making it homely and pleasant or move.

I have lived in some horrendous places, and had a stash of cosy throws, cushions and floor coverings that would brighten up the dingiest, smelliest rooms. Lots of pictures on the wall, maybe some paint if it is not too difficult.

I once lived somewhere where the living room opened onto a basement balcony, and the glass door and window had huge cracks, so that in winter it was freezing cold with a huge draft, dingy, dark and wet. It was all I could afford.

I hung a bright blanket over the wall, covering the door and window, put 5 or 6 normal spectrum lamps to make it really bright inside, rugs on the floor to cover the threadbare brown carpet and printed bright fun abstract art for the walls. Everyone loved it, it transformed the room into a cosy haven that we loved to relax in. And the heavy blanket cut out the noise of the neighbors revving their motorbikes 24/7, so we could actually have a conversation in there -before you had to go in the bedroom to talk to one another.

Everywhere has potential, if you are determined to make it liveable in, andit sounds like you need somewhere of your own, rather than spending all your time in other people's homes.

Just an idea.

You definitely need somewhere your family can be a unit together, and to be honest, you can't spend time at anyone else's home, even your mother's, without expecting them to be part of the conversation and interaction. It isn't fair to effectively say to your mom 'we need to use your home, but we don't want you here', which is what you are saying if you are excluding her from conversation.

Yes, some people are more respectful of other's privacy in conversation, but your mom is clearly not the type.

Your relationship with her will be better if you accept this and don't push situations where this will be an issue, like it is now.