Shabbos meal | Imamother

amother

Tue, Nov 26 2013, 8:33 am

wispalover wrote:

ETA: Do you think, maybe, there is a chance you like the attention that being "more religious" brings you? Or feeling like there is something that makes you different or better than those who will eat stuff heated on a blech? I am not being mean, just something to consider- maybe just don't make a big deal about it, ask them to pass the salad/ cold cuts/ whatever and say how great everything is with a big smile. Maybe that will make you feel better?

I have never said anything that would imply that I feel better than them. I certainly don't feel that way. I have discussed at length all my questions regarding a blech with a Rav. I know that many frum Jews don't do what I do, and I have never looked down on anyone.

I actually have friends who are not religious, and I never even bring up the topic of religion. Likewise, I have friends of all races from school that I keep up with and maintain relationships. When they do bring up the topic of religion, I answer politely in a very neutral sort of way.

With my in-laws, I never discussed anything religious with them until they invited us for shabbos, and they offered to accommodate us. But now I know they were just being polite, in the same way that they expected us to sit for the full four-hour lunch meal.

I googled "table manners" and all I got was this:

http://www.mtstcil.org/skills/manners-1.html

Quote:

Sit properly (and straight) in your chair
Talk about pleasant things
Place your napkin on your lap
Wait until everyone is seated before starting to eat
Watch others, or ask, if you're not sure how to eat something
Ask someone to pass the food, rather than reach across the table
Chew with your mouth closed
Don't talk with your mouth full
Use a knife and fork to cut your meat
Say "excuse me" or "I'm sorry" if you burp
Say "no thank you" if you don't want a certain dish or are full
Say "may I please be excused" before leaving the table

There is nothing that says you have to wait until the four-hour meal is over. As I said, I did not know about this "Jewish torture rule" and I have no intention of being a guest ever again.

amother

Tue, Nov 26 2013, 8:42 am

I found this on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_manners

Quote:

In the UK, the host or hostess takes the first bite unless he or she instructs otherwise. The host begins after all food is served and everyone is seated.[1] Food should always be tasted before salt and pepper are added. Applying condiments or seasoning before the food is tasted is viewed as an insult to the cook, as it shows a lack of faith in his/her ability to prepare a meal.[2] In religious households, a family meal may commence with saying Grace, or at dinner parties the guests might begin the meal by offering some favourable comments on the food and thanks to the host. In a group dining situation it is considered impolite to begin eating before all the group have been served their food and are ready to start.

The fork is held with the left hand and the knife held with the right. The fork is held generally with the tines down, using the knife to cut food or help guide food on to the fork. When no knife is being used, the fork can be held with the tines up. Under no circumstances should the fork be held like a shovel, with all fingers wrapped around the base. With the tines up, the fork balances on the side of the index finger, held in place with the thumb and index finger. When eating soup, the spoon is held in the right hand and the bowl tipped away from the diner, scooping the soup in outward movements. The soup spoon should never be put into the mouth, and soup should be sipped from the side of the spoon, not the end.[3] The knife should never enter the mouth or be licked.[1] Food should always be chewed with the mouth closed.[4] Talking with food in the mouth is seen as very rude.[1] Licking one's fingers and eating quickly is also considered impolite.

On formal dining occasions, it is good manners to take some butter from the butter dish with your bread knife and put it on your side plate (for the roll). Then butter pieces of the roll using this butter. This prevents the butter in the dish getting full of bread crumbs as it is passed around. Knives should be used to butter bread rolls but not to cut them - tear off a mouthful at a time with your hands.
White wine is held by the stem of the glass and red wine by cupping the bowl.[5] Wines should be served in the sequence "white before red, light before heavy, young before old".[6] Pouring your own drink when eating with other people is acceptable, but it is more polite to offer pouring drinks to the people sitting on either side of you.[1]

It is impolite to reach over someone to pick up food or other items. Diners should always ask for items to be passed along the table to them.[1] In the same vein, diners should pass those items directly to the person who asked.[2] It is also rude to take photographs while eating,[7] slurp food, eat noisily or make noise with cutlery.

When you have finished eating, and to let others know that you have, place your knife and fork together (fork on the left), with the prongs (tines) on the fork facing upwards, on your plate. Napkins should be placed unfolded on the table when the meal is finished.[1]

At family meals, children are often expected to ask permission to leave the table at the end of the meal.

The Jewish torture rule is not mentioned. What evil jerk invented this?

Frumdoc

Tue, Nov 26 2013, 8:52 am

Unless you have a child related or health reason to leave the table, it is just rude to go off. Even at my parents and inlaws, where we are comfortable enough that if we are very tired, we can go upstairs after the meal and have a shluff in one of fhe bedrooms, leaving the table in the middle of the meal is not kavodik.

It is difficult sometimes to sit at a table laden with food that you can't eat, but it is pretty common, allergies, food intolerances, differences in kashrus and dieting mean that most of us will be faced with food tempting us that we are not allowed. I remember when dieting that I found the challah sitting in front of me to be very hard, and asked my father to move it to his other side, so I had to ask for it to be passed, which stopped me eating it.

We try to avoid certain dishes at my in laws, as they have different kashrus standards to us, we asked our rav, who said if you can avoid it, then do, but if it upsets my dh's parents, and we are unable to be discreet, then eat the food. If that is not an option for you, make up something about being intolerant, off that for the moment and bring yourself something to eat in your room before the meal.

My inlaws also like to have very long drawn out discussions at the table, and shabbos lunch can last 3 or more hours. We do get very bored sometimes, but we sit, join in when we can, and wait it out, changing the subject to something a bit more shabbosdik if we can, but would never dream of excusing ourselves from the table, that is just plain rude and disrespectful.

I don't understand why you can't see how rude this is. How would you feel if you had made a real effort to invite guests who are difficult about your food, which you feel is completely kosher, sat and pointedly refused to eat anything, including the cold cuts you had bought especially for them, and then demanded you end your meal by benching before you had the chance to bring out the stunning desert you had spent a whole afternoon perfecting? And then told you not to let your daughter in the kitchen all afternoon as it would disturb them.

I wouldn't feel too kindly towards you if you did this at my house, irrespective of any pre existing issues.

Barbara

Tue, Nov 26 2013, 9:29 am

OP, I hate to be harsh, but its beginning to sound like the "Jewish Torture Rule" is having you as a guest.

Referring to your comments on both threads, you apparently believe that everyone should live their lives in a manner designed to maximize your enjoyment, no matter what impact is has on them.

You want to nap. Ergo, the child of your hosts should not be allowed to come into her own kitchen on Shabbat afternoon lest she disturb you.

You decide that you no longer wish to be at the lunch table. Ergo you decide it is time to end the meal, and ask others -- who have not yet finished their meals (dessert had not been served) to bentch, so you can take a walk. We often do talk for hours at the Shabbat table. That's because we LIKE one another, and enjoy spending time together. Sometimes people do retire to nearby couches. And occasionally someone has to leave, as in go home. But you didn't leave; you were staying there. You made clear that your hosts bored you, so you'd go do something more interesting. Moreover, when people have to leave early, they quietly bentch themselves. Asking others to end THEIR meals by bentching because YOU are done? Unbelievable.

You tell them that their standards of kashrut don't meet yours, and then ask THEM to change (using their oven in a certain way, for example), instead of (I) asking your rabbi what you may eat, or (ii) offering to bring food that you cooked in your kitchen -- and I don't mean a salad -- that meets your standards. And FTR, no one in my family makes any pretense of keeping kosher, so I regularly cook at home and cart the food 3 hours to heat up double-wrapped in their kitchens. That's just the way it is. (In my case, I do this because a family member is not up to traveling to us. You've been married 2 years, and your in-laws, whom you appear to visit relatively regularly, have never been to your home. And I don't just mean your MIL, whom you've apparently now agreed can visit on a Sunday for lunch, so you don't have to cook so much, but also your BIL, SIL and niece.)

Maybe its time for you to look inside, to consider your own actions, and think about whether maybe you're bringing all this animosity from your husband's family on yourself.

MMCH

Tue, Nov 26 2013, 10:06 am

in my mind, you leave the table to go to the bathroom, or to deal with your little kids.

we one time had a guest (a kid really, lost soul) who left the table after he finished eating his chicken to rest on the couch.
my dh and I thought it was the weirdest thing!
we didnt say anything the first time, bc we hardly knew him. but like who calls and ASKS to come for a meal, and then leaves to go lay down in someone elses house??! besides rude, its weird!

growing, nobody left the table (expect bathroom obv) for nothing. even thgh the couch is in ear and eye shot, my father considered it "anti-social behavior" to leave when everyone else is talking.

chocolate chips

Tue, Nov 26 2013, 10:40 am

I didn't vote since none of the options really relate how I feel.

I think that if you have a health issue or kids to deal with then you can 100% say "sorry I am feeling a bit weak could I be excused?" or "so sorry my kids need to go to bed excuse me for a few minutes". In the latter case obviously always come back.

Eating out or at others tables has its pros and cons if the cons for your outweigh the pros then don't go out to eat.

That said I am pregnant and after sitting in one place for too long (especially upright) and especially after eating a large meal I get back and side pains and extremely uncomfortable. Of course I aid this by always helping to serve each course if I can but if the meal is dragging a bit I will say "is it ok if I go sit on the couch for a bit my back is hurting" but will always stay in the room.

The one time (and I think only time) I actually left a meal and went to sleep was the shabbos after ds was born after soup I went to the couch in the other room and fell asleep.

Again, if you are just tired, well, sorry to be blunt but suck it up. You want the meal to run clockwork, faster, more entertaining, be the host not the guest.

amother

Tue, Nov 26 2013, 9:22 pm

I completely and vehemently agree with the OP. not about the halacha stuff, or about her situation, maybe she was rude earlier in the meal I dont know.

no idea about that. but there is nothing nothing nothing at all wrong with getting up at any time and asking to be excused. you accuse people who would want to leave a meal of immaturity? excuse me? what about the people who are so immature and lacking in self confidence and a sense of their own self worth they feel attacked by someone asking to leave their meal after two hours of listening to them pontificate about nonsense?

you talk about derech eretz? you talk about manners? how about not getting upset by perfectly reasonable requests that cost you nothing nothing nothing at all. and if you feel it's costing you something to let your guests leave your shabbos table, I'm sorry but you got issues. really

you talk about derech eretz? you talk about manners? if you had any sort of decent manners, you would glance at the clock and notice it was two hours into the meal and politely ask "does anyone want to bentch? I know we are all having such a great time here, but maybe someone would like to go? the rest of us can all stay, or not, of course! we are happy to have you for as long as is convenient!"

please. grow up and stop thinking that just because people have issues that its rude to be normal. of course, if you are acting in a way which is offensive or there are other circumstances involved, everything is different, but come on.

if your family is having a giant yomtov meal and you don't feel comfortable asking if you can please be excused 2+ hours in something, somewhere, with someone, is very very wrong

cs1

Tue, Nov 26 2013, 11:33 pm

Its definitely rude to leave the table in middle of a meal with the exception of having to run after your kids or putting a baby to bed. But thats in the house - Leaving the house is wrong.

However, there were times that I was at my ILs (and they have such loong meals 3-4 hours) and I was so tired (only friday nights) that my head was starting to get dizzy and so I quietly went to bed. It was always at least an hour after the main course was served and they were still yapping away, and while it was interesting I was just really feeling sick. I also suffer from vertigo so I hahave to lay down right away.

In my parents house the meals are about 2 hours so their a relatively normal time. Once in a blue moon when I'm sick, ill leave early but its my home and my parents are totally cool with it.

At any other home I would never leave the table. Totally rude.

ora_43

Wed, Nov 27 2013, 6:12 am

I think that a polite guest tries to stay until the end of the meal. I also think that it's polite for hosts to have bentching right after the meal, before dessert, so that people feel OK to leave if they'd like to do so. But I can see how sometimes, when conversation is flowing and everyone seems to be having fun, people just forget.

Sometimes it's OK to excuse oneself, sometimes not. I think it really depends on circumstances. Like, if it's a rare family get-together for the holidays, often it's expected that everyone is going to spend several hours together, and leaving after just two hours would be weird. It also depends what you're leaving to do. Leaving to go lie down because you don't feel well is never rude, leaving to go talk to another person privately is often rude.

OP, in your case I think it was a bit rude to leave. Not because you left the meal, but because you and your dh kept on socializing - but with each other rather than with your hosts. Your BIL might have felt like, "they get to see each other every day, why can't they spend just one afternoon talking to us?"

His response was extremely hurtful and rude, and I don't think it's a proportionate response to your (unintentional) offense at all. But since you asked - there it is.

I think a more polite response would have been: 1. if everyone was more or less done eating and the problem was the tempting food sitting out - offer to help clear the table, 2. if everyone was still eating and the problem was the tempting food sitting out - pretend you're not feeling well and go "lie down" for a few minutes, then go to wherever you're sleeping and eat food you left there, and return feeling refreshed, or 3. if food wasn't the issue and you just don't like spending time with your BIL - spend time with him anyway, because it's rude not to, but feel free to limit the frequency of your visits. Just IMHO.