Asian costume for 2 year old girl, baby boy and us

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Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Purim

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vintagebknyc

Tue, Oct 28 2014, 8:32 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

If there are Asian costumes for sale, then it's possible it's PC to dress up Asian.
I'm curious: do Asians get as offended as say, Native Americans do? (Assuming Native Americans do; and if they do I get it.)

yes, I think they'd be offended. this thread makes me offended for them.

PinkFridge

Tue, Oct 28 2014, 8:34 pm

mommyla wrote:

They do! And that's fine, as long as they're not offensive costumes.

I don't get why people get all bent out of shape on these ethnic costumes. As long as they're not totally off-base or insulting, who cares?

(Ducking tomatoes)

I think that's reasonable.

vintagebknyc

Tue, Oct 28 2014, 8:36 pm

mommyla wrote:

mommlya, people tend to choose costumes that are funny/silly/clever/a joke. where in there does this kind of costume fit in... it's funny to dress like an asian? it's clever? it's silly? when everyone dresses up like clowns and animals, and someone in the group decides to dress up as a hasidic jew, what does that say about the person dressing up?

mommyla

Tue, Oct 28 2014, 8:41 pm

I don't know. I think the point is to be disguised, whether it's clever or funny or cute or whatever. So I'd get a kick out of seeing a blonde, blue-eyed person dressed Asian because it's unexpected, a non sequitur. I'd honestly find it funny if my non-Jewish neighbor dressed as a Chasidic Jew, as long as it didn't have some sort of offensive stereotype attached to it.

Is dressing up like a nurse or a fireman funny or clever or a joke? No, it's just a costume. I think those who are offended are thinking into it much more than the one who picked the costume.

Simple1

Tue, Oct 28 2014, 8:43 pm

From what I've seen, people who dress in Asian costumes, are aiming for something pretty, or interesting. I agree that many costumes are clever or funny, but I wouldn't consider Asian one of them.

I would think it's cute if non Jews dressed in Jewish costumes - as long as there is no derisive intent.

syrima

Wed, Oct 29 2014, 10:25 am

Go to canal street in Manhattan on a Sunday. there are rows of stores with kimonos in all sizes for sale. You will get the cheapest price there. Cool

amother

Wed, Oct 29 2014, 11:45 am

Thank you Syrima - for the helpful comment. I didn't come on hear to debate whether it was an appropriate costume or not. I was looking for an answer to a specific question.

Barbara

Wed, Oct 29 2014, 12:27 pm

mommyla wrote:

Assuming that you're really interested in an answer, google "we're a culture not a costume."

People are offended when their culture is stereotyped, when it is distilled into "dressing up for fun" instead of respect. Its making people into caricatures, not respecting them.

Its the difference amongst these

Once you put on that makeup, you're in racist territory.

mommyla

Wed, Oct 29 2014, 12:45 pm

Barbara wrote:

I've seen the video. I still believe that if it's not an offensive stereotype, then why get offended? Obviously there's a difference between wearing traditional Native American dress and wearing a Disney Pocahontas costume with a feather headdress while running around doing war whoops. Obviously there's a difference between wearing a kimono and a black wig and wearing the same outfit while limiting your vocabulary to "ching chong chong."

If you have a group of ethnically mixed people, and they decide to dress up as one another for Halloween - again, no offensive stereotypes - why is that offensive? If your neighbor dresses up as a Jew, as long as he's not doing an insultingly bad impression of Tevye from Fiddler on the Roof or pretending to grab everyone's money, why would that bother you?

mommyla

Wed, Oct 29 2014, 1:27 pm

Also, I think that many ethnic groups are overly sensitive to slurs or perceived slurs (Jews included - how many people are quick to shout "anti-Semitism!" when it's often not?). Look at the Disney empire. Now I know that Walt Disney was a rampant racist, but these days there's a princess for just about every race. But people are still not happy. For years there are grumblings about why all the princesses are white - and once there's a black princess, there are complaints about stereotyping. Same with Native Americans after Pocahontas and Asians after Mulan. No matter what kind of princess is created, someone will have an issue with it - whether it's because the princess is [insert race or ability here] or because she's not.

Basically, you're d@mned if you do and d@mned if you don't. Of course, that principle does not apply to dressing up like other ethnicities (I've never heard of a black person protesting the lack of black costumes), but I hope you get my point - that some people are looking to be offended over something that's not intended to be offensive.

allrgymama

Wed, Oct 29 2014, 1:45 pm

mommyla wrote:

Is dressing up like a nurse or a fireman funny or clever or a joke? No, it's just a costume. I think those who are offended are thinking into it much more than the one who picked the costume.

The difference between these things are that 'nurse' and 'firefighter' are occupations and changeable and one's race is not.

I can't think of any situation in which I would not be offended to see someone dressed up as a Chossid for Halloween. There is no way that that is not being done to mock the culture.

So unless (general, not specific) you are going to actually learn about an Asian culture and maybe include something in your Mishloach Manos about the culture to educate the people you are giving to and to emphasize that the choice of theme was done out of respect and curiosity, skip it.

mommyla

Wed, Oct 29 2014, 1:55 pm

And I wouldn't see it as mocking unless there's blatant mockery going on. To each his own, I guess.

And for the record, I don't dress up in ethnic costume. I just don't see why a non-offensive costume is so bad, but that's just me.

allrgymama

Wed, Oct 29 2014, 2:01 pm

Well, I realize that I'm making assumptions here, but if I go out on Friday and see one of my non-Jewish neighbors dressed as a Jew, I'm just not going to think that he gave himself a crash course on Chassidus. I'm just not.

In which case, he is dressing up that way because he thinks it's funny and it is therefor offensive.

(There is also a difference between Halloween and Purim. Except for Pagans, the point of Halloween is motivated completely by bad Middos. Purim is not.)

Barbara

Wed, Oct 29 2014, 2:12 pm

allrgymama wrote:

Really? You think that Halloween is motivated by "bad middos"?

We celebrated Halloween when I was a kid. Dressing up in costumes was fun. Going to parties was fun. Play-scary things, pumpkin patches, and hay rides were fun. Trick or treating is fun ... although I don't know if I ever met anyone who "tricked" someone.

mommyla

Wed, Oct 29 2014, 2:13 pm

Why is it offensive that he thinks it's funny? (Unless you mean that he thinks we're funny looking and is thereby making fun of us.) Why is it only okay if he knows something about our culture?

My neighbors are, for the most part, nice, tolerant, and accepting people. They know diddly squat about Judaism. If they're dressing up as us, it's not an insult - it's just different. We look different, and that's okay. Don't we teach our kids to accept people who look different from us? So they're not making fun of us, they're just dressing up as something that they're not.

That's my take on it, anyway. I know many people will disagree. But I'm okay with my neighbors dressing up as Jews, be it for Halloween or a costume party.

(As an aside, there was one Halloween that fell out on Friday night years ago. Our rav was walking home from shul when a group of enthusiastic celebrants came up to him and congratulated him - "hey, man, awesome costume!" Not an offensive "costume." Not a funny "costume." Just an authentic rabbi "costume.")

imasoftov

Wed, Oct 29 2014, 2:24 pm

allrgymama wrote:

(There is also a difference between Halloween and Purim. Except for Pagans, the point of Halloween is motivated completely by bad Middos. Purim is not.)

What in your opinion is "the point of Halloween"?

Fox

Wed, Oct 29 2014, 3:46 pm

The sociological explanation for holidays in which people dress in costume is to delineate "what we are not" with regard to the "other" -- whether that "other" is a fear of death and the monstrous (e.g., witch and ghoul costumes); age (e.g., little girls dressing up as mommies); fantasies (e.g., princesses or pirates); or, yes, different cultures.

The problem for minority groups, particularly those who have suffered discrimination in the past, is that there's no way to have one's cake and eat it, too: the more interaction your group has within the larger society and/or the more awareness you create, the more likely you are to suffer from "cultural appropriation" of the very totems that mark your group as unique, including their inclusions in other people's costumes.

And even if one attempts to avoid unpleasant stereotypes in costumes, it's almost impossible to do unless you are truly familiar with the culture -- which by definition would make it less of a "costume."

Add to that, the fact that members of various groups have widely divergent opinions themselves. For example, some Native Americans adamantly oppose any kind of Native American costumes. But many actively encourage such costumes and even sell the various components, seeing it as a way to educate people about Native American culture.

I don't have a pat answer, and I don't think anyone does. Unless you dress your kid as a licensed cartoon character or as something/somebody without a lobbying group, you probably can't win. My own comfort level is as follows: avoid anything that calls attention to physical differences (e.g., drawing "Asian" eyes or "blackface"). Avoid negative stereotypes (that means you can't dress as a leprechaun holding a pint mug). Buy authentic stuff.

Let me elaborate on that last one: if you have time to do elaborate costumes that match your mishloach manos for 350 of your closest friends, then you have time to take your kids to Chinatown and learn to say a few words of Mandarin while purchasing inexpensive elements for a costume. Or take them to a powwow that's open to the public. You'd be surprised how many there are, and you can get great, authentic items from people who will explain in way greater detail than you ever dreamed about how to wear or use the item. Or go to Scottish Games. Or a Mexican neighborhood. Stop in a Honduran or Puerto Rican neighborhood on your way so that your kids learn that not everyone who speaks Spanish is alike.

Most of us live in urban areas with more access to different cultures than we can imagine. Using the occasion of a costume holiday to teach a little about other cultures; interacting with members of those cultures; and demonstrating respect for them is probably better than throwing up our hands and purchasing the latest Disney offerings.

Plus, if they're dressed as Hmong or Scots or whatever, you will be spared endless choruses of "Let It Go."

amother

Wed, Oct 29 2014, 3:54 pm

My son goes to a non jewish school (special ed). If his classmates dressed up this Friday with kippot and tsitsis I would be offended. It's insensitive to put a playful spin on something that is part of our religious observance.

People in diff. cultures wear specific clothes as an expression of their beliefs and heritage and when you use it as a costume, it trivializes it.

allrgymama

Wed, Oct 29 2014, 4:02 pm

Barbara wrote:

I should have realized that would be misunderstood. I'm sorry.

What I meant was that it is originally a pagan holiday and has to do with ghosts and witches and has satanic elements. It's based on beliefs about the dead, and demons. And it is not, in today's incarnation, anything but pure leizunus.

Whereas other non-jewish holidays, at least, have some element of religion or family still stringy associated with them.

And purim is, rather, a celebration of overcoming adversity and so on. With an emphasis on giving to those who have less than you, and connecting with family.

Edit: also, as I'm having it, this isn't a conversation about the harmless fun of children on Halloween vs that of purim. It's about adults making a costume or theme choice that either is informed or isn't.

So, to go back, I'm not going to think that someone observing a 'holiday' of leizunus is going to research Judaism before making their costume choice. As proven by the need for the 'I'm a culture, not a costume

PinkFridge

Wed, Oct 29 2014, 9:00 pm

allrgymama wrote:

Eh, nobody thinks that deeply anymore. They're focused on the fun and camaraderie. And as an aside, because people don't think deeply, they don't think too much about the symbolism of their costumes.

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