Orthodox Girls Wearing Tefillin

marina

Thu, Jan 23 2014, 8:38 am

So let's talk about this.

http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-Wo.....39090

My position is that:

1. So many adults and adolescents don't care about tefillin, even if they wear them - kol hakavod to these girls if they want to connect to God in this way or any way.

2. We shouldn't have double standards for people who are not chayav.

If you're going to say that these girls shouldn't wear tefillin because they are not chayav and their motives are suspect and they haven't perfected their other obligations, etc, etc., then you must say the same for those disabled men who are also not chayav to put on tefillin. You don't know what their motives are and they haven't perfected their other obligations etc.

JoyInTheMorning

Thu, Jan 23 2014, 8:56 am

Agreed. This reminds me of the reaction of teachers in my RW high school when I said I wanted to learn gemara. My motives were questioned, I was told that I should first learn Tanach more thoroughly, etc. What was the point of doing that?

And are the MO doing the equivalent of that to their students?Why would MO even care if girls wear tefillin? I'm puzzled and dismayed. Well, I should say, rather, that I'm dismayed because I'm not really puzzled. The MO power structure is also invested in keeping the status quo, and that trumps respecting individuals. Yuck.

naturemom

Thu, Jan 23 2014, 9:14 am

"Another modern-Orthodox high school in Los Angeles, Shalhevet, is holding firm against the practice..... there will be times when something might be technically permitted but not wise to allow.”

This quote from the article is very wise.
Indeed not everything that can be done should be done.

This stubborn insistence on pushing the envelope is going to cause a massive rift in MO jewry soon.

Tell me then. Is it really worth it?

amother

Thu, Jan 23 2014, 9:30 am

^ That amother is right, though. And before anyone jumps down my throat for also posting anonymously, I'll explain that I'm about to be rather open about my past in a way that I don't want attached to my username.

Look, this phenomenon of women deciding they are so frum they need to put on tefillin? Been there, done that. I used to be part of the "Conservadox" movement, where we were all "egalitarian" (or something. Standard practice regarding tefillin, tallis, counting in a minyan, and probably other things I don't remember right now was that men must do xyz and woman have the option).

But no Orthodoxy that I know wants women to pretend to be men. I left the Conservative movement in large part to embrace my femininity, because I didn't want the responsibility of trying to be a woman and a man at the same time, and I couldn't believe that a G-d who had created both really wanted that from me.

And another point about these tefillin-wearers? Rav Moshe paskened that women may only do this l'shem shamayim, and unfortunately publicly just doesn't cut it, as all she's doing is making a statement. If these girls truly had the right motives and were wearing tefillin l'shem shamayim THEN NO ONE WOULD KNOW ABOUT IT. My extremely yeshivish Rosh Yeshiva told me that I may put them on if I want--IN PRIVATE and WITHOUT ANYONE KNOWING. (I don't, though, for what it's worth.)

Sorry, I'm not trying to yell--caps are for emphasis.

amother

Thu, Jan 23 2014, 9:30 am

Anon because of personal information I'm about to divulge.

I'm actually laughing my head off at this because this has been going on at Ramaz for years. In fact, I was a student there when the first 2 girls started over a decade ago. This is not new.

Another who is bashing SAR- go read the article properly. Both girls identify as Conservative. They go to an Orthodox school and are more committed than the typical Conservative Jew, but they are not themselves Orthodox. This is fairly common in certain schools, where not all the kids are frum. I know the family of one of the girls, both parents are Conservative rabbis. They would rather send to Schechter, but the Schechter schools have been closing left and right.

Personally, I do think women wearing tefillin is problematic, but it is still within the pale, even if pushing the boundaries. But I really hate the whole "questioning her motives" thing. My two Ramaz classmates who did it- well, yeah, one was trying to make a statement/create a stir. She did that in man areas and is still like that today. She fits that stereotype to a T. But guess what, not everyone is like that! The other girl is completely sincere, conscientious in all areas of mitzvot, and doesn't try to make a splash at all. If you met her, you'd never know unless it came up, and you'd never make that "what's her motive" argument again.

Ruchel

Thu, Jan 23 2014, 9:34 am

If their Orthodox rav gave this psak... then it's their psak.

I don't "get it", but bear in mind I'm from old school European MO circles. As in I went to a job interview to a school, no dress code, no kippa tsitsit mandatory, sports even was co-ed - but when they finally started Gemara the kodesh class became separated. That's more my MO (well the lite MO version not quite the strong MO one) Smile

Ema of 5

Thu, Jan 23 2014, 9:36 am

amother wrote:

You have a reason to be anonymous, you are revealing something about your past. Amother above seems to just not want to be connected to her opinion.

It's not for me, but as far as I know, it's not against Halacha....

BlueRose52

Thu, Jan 23 2014, 9:42 am

marina wrote:

If you're going to say that these girls shouldn't wear tefillin because they are not chayav and their motives are suspect and they haven't perfected their other obligations, etc, etc., then you must say the same for those disabled men who are also not chayav to put on tefillin. You don't know what their motives are and they haven't perfected their other obligations etc.

Additionally, if you're going to say that these girls shouldn't wear tefillin because they are not chayav, then you should also say that women should also not be encouraged to shake lulav and do other such things which they aren't chayav in.

Ruchel

Thu, Jan 23 2014, 9:48 am

There are definitely rabbis who say if you do everything (or try to) then tefillin in private is not assur... but once you start it's much more complicated to stop, I was told.

Some pasken on your period you can't wear them.

There are also definitely rabbis, and not just "charedim", who will say why should a woman shake a lulav. And certainly why would she do it daily.

princessleah

Thu, Jan 23 2014, 9:53 am

I can't even with these comments.

As mentioned above, both girls are Conservative. I assume they have been putting on Tefillin daily since they were Bat Mitzvahed. Don't even dare to question their motives. They are obligated to be at a tefilah service daily by their school-- that is how the schools work. Also note they go to a ''women's tefilah'' service, which I find odd as an offering; if there is a minyan happening, why shouldn't everyone be at it?
But anyway, what should they do, put their tefilin on at home to hide their dirty little secret and then go to davening? When is the last time any of us went to shacharit services every day of the week?

Give me a break. I live in Riverdale, and there is no Conservative school here-- there is a Schechter in Westchester. A lot of the observant Conservative families here send their kids to SAR, and they have made an incredible effort to be welcoming to all kinds of families. The end result? Kids who are strongly shomer mitzvot when they otherwise might not have been to this extent.

Shame on anybody who derides or mocks that.

Ruchel

Thu, Jan 23 2014, 10:16 am

Most of the schools I'm used to include all levels of frumkeit (or not). They may or not have rules inside the school (or even outside, but then those ones generally don't have non frum kids or even lite MO kids). If their rule is no tefillin, then tefillin stays at home. If your rav says tefillin in private, then in private it is. If your school says no chalav stam snack, then also the CS snack stays at home. You have it at breakfast before going to school. It's not treif for you, but the school doesn't want it because either they think it is, or they have pupils who can't eat it and it causes sharing problems, or they don't think it is but still want the chumra.

Sending to a frummer (or less frum) school means the school won't be exactly how you like, or even very different. You can change yourself (or not), but you certainly can't change the school. It seems this school has a rav who could accommodate this thing, so they can do it. Most other Orthodox schools of any flavour probably wouldn't. There are also schools who tell little kids who can wait 3 h to also not flaunt it because many classmates can't.

goodmorning

Thu, Jan 23 2014, 10:29 am

BlueRose52 wrote:

This is a specious halachic argument.

It is not just that women are not obligated in wearing tefillin; it is that numerous rishonim and acharonim (Maharam, Kol Bo, Beis Yosef, Rema, Gra, Mishna Brurua, Aruch haShulchan...) viewed it as incorrect or forbidden.

In contrast, there are no sources that forbid a woman from shaking lulav and there are, in fact, acharonim who mandate it.

I'm not commenting on school policy; I am merely addressing the argument above.

BlueRose52

Thu, Jan 23 2014, 10:40 am

goodmorning wrote:

I don't think it's specious at all. If you believe a principle should be applied in one place, then it should also be applied in other places. Of course, one may reasonably argue that in certain circumstances, there may be additional factors that determine whether an issue may be forbidden or allowed. But all else being equal, one should not selectively apply a rule.

You are bringing in additional reasons for tefillin to be not allowed, and that's fine. But if you are going to use the reason of "they aren't chayav, so they shouldn't do it", then that reason should be applied to other areas too.

Ema of 5

Thu, Jan 23 2014, 10:43 am

goodmorning wrote:

Rashi's daughter is said to have worn tefillin. Also there was an article in one of the magazines within the last few months about "the female rebbe" and she also wore tefillin. (I forget her name at the moment)
There are numerous poskim and numerous points of view on everything. Some say you need a double hair covering, some say only a sheitel, some say only a scarf/tichel whatever, some say it doesn't all need to be covered, some say it doesn't need to be covered. What works for one may not work for another. I grew up lighting menorah, shaking lilac if I remembered, and I only said/did hosha'anas a few times. I got married, and in my husbands family, women don't light (had a whole discussion with my husband about if it's assur or not), women MUST shake and women MUST say/do hosha'anas. It is our job to get along and respect other people ways of life. What works for me works for me, but it may not work for you. These girls want to put on tefillin? There are poskim who say it is allowed, so as far as I'm concerned, kol hakavod to tem, as long as no one tries to get me to do it.

goodmorning

Thu, Jan 23 2014, 10:46 am

BlueRose52 wrote:

Sorry, I missed that line in the article. Can you point to it for me?

I would have assumed that the argument would have been that given that women are not obligated and there are additional halachic considerations (stemming from the fact that they are not obligated), it is appropriate to refrain for wearing them.

BlueRose52

Thu, Jan 23 2014, 10:48 am

goodmorning wrote:

I don't know all the sources you mentioned, but I know some of them. As far as I know the Beis Yosef is silent on the matter, can you provide a source to back up your claim that he forbids it? Also, the mishna brura and aruch hashulchan both are against it for a simple reason, they say women don't keep their bodies appropriately clean. This is obviously something that is easily addressable to anyone who cares to do the mitzvah right.