1) With school-age kids, 2) my Hebrew stinks. Hopeless?

amother

Sun, Feb 09 2014, 10:53 pm

So, I always sort of entertained a dream of moving to Israel. I guess I kind of thought maybe I'd move there upon getting married, grow into it, and move back if it didn't work. But I married into a totally American life, it's just what worked for us at the time and for the foreseeable future.

Now we're beginning to entertain thoughts of making aliyah in a few years. DH is in school here for at least the next 4 or so, but after that he'll have a pretty portable profession and we'll be looking for a place to settle (we're not really comfortable where we are for long term, but it is near a good school for him and a good job for me and supportive family, so this is where we are until he graduates) I could see Israel working out for us then in a few ways: I think we could find a community we could fit in with there, I have some family there whom I miss very much (of course if we go we'll have the opposite problem...), there could be jobs for DH, lower tuition expenses for the kids, and, well, it's ISRAEL. Duh. Land of the forefathers etc etc.

HOWEVER, by then we will have IY"H two kids in grade school, at least. Bright, good, American, English-speaking kids. I'm terrified that it would be traumatic for them to switch (it would be something like 1st and 3rd grade for them, or a year or two more) They'd go from the top of their class to the bottom. Culture shock. My older kid, though still in preschool, already seems to have a shy, anxious personality. How could we do that to her?

I'd say the only way to mitigate that at least somewhat is to start talking Ivrit at home now. But that brings me to the second problem. My Hebrew is awful and I am NOT good at learning languages. I flunked out of my second language in school and it took me years longer than everyone else to catch onto Hebrew enough to read a siddur and chumash. DH can handle yeshivish-bookish Hebrew but not modern conversational type. And all I need is to encounter one "r" and I make a complete fool of myself. I don't want my kids to suffer the embarrassment of having practically illiterate parents (OK, we're pretty literate by now but how do you say "people who can read and write well but break their teeth trying to talk?") I'm worried about not being able to help my kids with their homework and not being able to tell if kids are teasing each other under my nose because I can't figure out what they're saying.

Is there hope for us?

Marion

Sun, Feb 09 2014, 11:33 pm

Of course there's hope for you. You need to choose a city/moatza with good support in place for olim. Technically all oleh children are entitled to extra help in school for the first year; not all schools are good at providing it. You may choose to put them back a year in school (the oldest one at least) to acquire the language. The younger ones will likely pick it up pretty quickly. If you have a first grader you probably will NOT want to put him/her back; it's easiest to learn to read when everyone else is doing so, and here they only teach reading/writing in grade one, not gan.

amother

Sun, Feb 09 2014, 11:41 pm

I'm more worried about socialization than reading/writing. B"H the school we're sending to in the US seems to be reasonably strong in Hebrew, but still, it's a Bais Yaakov - they'll probably be able to catch up in reading and writing well enough, but not that conversational, strong American accent, and other than language I don't know how to curricula align in general.

And what about me and DH? Will we always sound foolish? Will that affect our kids? I have two family members who seem to have integrated successfully but they are both WAY better at languages than I am, and one is married to a native, and both moved there around when they got married so they had time to grow into it before their kids knew the difference. I feel like such a greenhorn.

5mom

Mon, Feb 10 2014, 1:28 am

With four years to go there is a lot you can do. If possible, find an Israeli tutor to speak conversational Hebrew to you and your kids. Even an hour a week will go a long way. Consider watching bilingual Rechov Sumsum (Sesame Street) shows with your kids. If you want to push yourself, watch Israeli TV online. If you catch a word or two, great!

When you come to Israel, look for a community with lots of English speakers and facilities for olim. Yes, you'll be in an anglo bubble, but you'll still be in Israel, and that's what counts.

Good luck!

Sanguine

Mon, Feb 10 2014, 2:53 am

Four years is a lot of time. How are you going to hold on to your dreams? Find people who are making Aliya now and become friends. Maybe Nefesh B'Nefesh has these aliya groups (I don't really know what they have) but that will keep you focused on your goal. You'll cheer as people go and "promise" to follow soon. That would be my main concern - Keeping the dream alive.

As everyone said. Move to a neighborhood with a lot of anglos. Your kids will do fine. The anglo kids will be their friends right away and in no time they'll be jabbering with these same friends in Hebrew and with the Israeli kidstoo. The kids pick up the language in no time. As olim, they'll get help in school. Start to prepare your kids emotionally now already. Just talk about Israel a lot now. When you get closer you'll start to get them to think of living in Israel and what a dream it is so when you finally tell them that you're really going they'll feel like they won the lottery!

You have 4 years for you to learn more Hebrew. Don't worry if your Hebrew is poor and your accent is very American. And certainly don't worry that you can't read Hebrew newspapers. You can work on your Hebrew over these four years. The best is if you can find an Ulpan type of class. Work on the basics and the rest will pick up here.

LisaS

Mon, Feb 10 2014, 3:33 am

My husband is extremely good with languages and has really amazing Hebrew for an oleh. But he had a very hard time with finding his place in the workplace for other reasons. I am not saying this to discourage you, rather to say that the one with the better Hebrew isn't necessarily the one who integrates more easily.

My daughter is also both very anxious and very shy but she has blossomed here.

Making aliya is an enormous change in your family's life, but it doesn't sounds like your family has particular challenges that others haven't faced.

Behatzlacha.

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Feb 10 2014, 4:18 am

amother wrote:

In terms of language integration, you dont have to always have perfect or even near perfect hebrew when coming. You do have 4 years now so you could start taking ulpan where you live, but that being said, when I married my husband, he knew almost nothing. He bh landed a job shortly after he started looking for one and he had almost no hebrew. He has been working at this company now for over 6 years and his hebrew has by default improved. He had no choice but to learn it. He still uses english when he has to rattle something off quickly to his boss, but just by being in the work force his hebrew improved.
Depending on your husband's field, that may just work out, that he will be hired, not based on his hebrew skills. It does happen. My husband is perfect proof of that. What field is your husband in?

smss

Mon, Feb 10 2014, 5:29 am

amother wrote:

So, I always sort of entertained a dream of moving to Israel. I guess I kind of thought maybe I'd move there upon getting married, grow into it, and move back if it didn't work.

I know I'm going to get bashed for this, but I'm saying it anyway. IMO, that's not enough. the people who succeed in making it here are the ones who came because they LONGED to live in israel and would not move back for anything. (oh, and it also helps if they come with money....)

making aliyah is VERY hard. you've already thought of some of the challenges and you can be sure there are lots more you haven't even thought of yet. the only way to stick it out through those challenges is if you are absolutely convinced beyond a doubt that israel is the best place for you to be and there's nowhere else you'd rather live and raise your children. if you REALLY believe that (and if it's actually true for your family - it's certainly not true for everyone), you'll find a way to make it work. if not, well.......

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Feb 10 2014, 5:58 am

smss wrote:

I completely agree with you, no bashing here. If you want to make aliyah, you have to WANT to make aliyah, not with the thought of "ah, if it doesnt work for any little reason, we will just go back". Thats not aliyah. Thats just playing a different game of house.
I completely agree with you smss.

FranticFrummie

Mon, Feb 10 2014, 6:09 am

This blog post should be required reading for anyone who is thinking about Aliyah. It really made me stop and think, and question myself. Where did the poster go wrong? What could she have done better? Will I make the same mistakes?

http://avivahwerner.com/2014/0.....sion/

That said, with a GOOD native Hebrew speaking teacher, you can become fluent before you get there, but you'll have to pay him/her well, and really work hard at it. If you children are good at reading and picking up languages, you'll be amazed at how fast they acclimate.

We're hoping to make Aliyah over the summer, and I'm going to have DD held back in 5th grade. She's totally OK with this, and knows that the language will be a challenge. We signed up for an email that gives us one Hebrew word a day, and we're having fun with expanding our vocabulary. I still can't conjugate a verb to save my life, but it will all come with time.

Israelis are very sweet people, and if they see you struggling with the language they will not laugh at your face. They will do their very best to help you out, and many of them know some English, even if they are not fluent. Don't think of it as being embarrassed, think of it as how proud you are to be trying your very best. You'll be valued for the effort you put into it, even if it's not perfectly grammatically correct.

smss

Mon, Feb 10 2014, 6:22 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

Israelis are very sweet people, and if they see you struggling with the language they will not laugh at your face. They will do their very best to help you out, and many of them know some English, even if they are not fluent.

let's not generalize.... a couple weeks ago a cashier literally did laugh out loud in my face when I said something in hebrew. she was like "say that again! you sound so funny!" now okay, that hasn't happened to me too many times, and in general yes, most israelis are nice about it, but that doesn't mean they magically understand what I'm trying to say. living in israel requires a whole lot more vocabulary than just visiting or being in seminary here. there's the banks, the health clinics, the gas/electric/phone companies, the gov't offices, just to name a few- that's a lot of different words to know! it is definitely possible to get by, but you have to be prepared to feel stupid a lot and not always understand what's being said to you, which can be very stressful when we're talking about a medical/financial/bureaucratic issue.

I hope this isn't too negative, definitely there are many people who make aliyah with very little hebrew and learn it as the years go by and do manage. I just feel like people deserve to know what they're getting themselves into.

FranticFrummie

Mon, Feb 10 2014, 6:38 am

smss wrote:

She laughed in your face? That was rude! I figured they'd laugh, but at least they'd wait until they got home to tell their friends.

Maybe you said something unintentionally hilarious, like "May I dance with a trout in winter?" (I know I will totally say stuff like that when I first get there.)

It's going to be extremely stressful, for sure. Just remember, the ONE and only thing you really have control over in this life, is your attitude. If you don't let your pride get in the way, you do your best, and you can take being corrected with graciousness, then you have nothing to be embarrassed about.

Have you ever noticed that babies don't get embarrassed? If they did, they'd never learn how to walk. They fall down a hundred times a day, and just keep getting back up again (even when we're laughing at how cute they are!) If babies took it personally, the whole human race would be crawling around on our hands and knees, never knowing that we could walk, or even run. Try to tap into that "baby optimism".

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Feb 10 2014, 6:40 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

I know this is COMPLETELY off topic, but I have to say that that blogpost was terrible to read. The problems started for her when, and I quote "when I was informed that, in order to fulfill our destiny, we must move halfway across the world to Israel".

As someone mentioned before, you have to WANT to make aliyah. I know people like this where their spouses spring it on them. It can not have any good outcome at all, but this is not the norm. And I do not believe that this woman's post is the norm, not at all.
So, she went wrong in that she never wanted to make aliyah so she came at it from a negative start and thats a bad place to be.

smss

Mon, Feb 10 2014, 6:51 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

nope, she was ringing up the groceries of the person in front of me and picked up something that was mine and I told her "zeh sheli". she just thought my accent was hysterical...

FranticFrummie

Mon, Feb 10 2014, 6:58 am

smss wrote:

nope, she was ringing up the groceries of the person in front of me and picked up something that was mine and I told her "zeh sheli". she just thought my accent was hysterical...

I had something similar happen to me in London. I went into a dress shop, and the sales girl asked if she could help me. I told her what style I was looking for, and she said "Oh my gosh, you're American! Say something else in American!" and three other sales girls came rushing over. I was like embarrassed

"Um, I'm not sure what I should say." and they all started squealing and saying "It's so CUTE! You're ADORABLE! Say something else!" It was surreal. I just wanted to find a nice Shabbos suit and get on with my life.

American accents are adorable (at least in London). Who knew? Confused

Sanguine

Mon, Feb 10 2014, 7:43 am

smss wrote:

So true - You have to really really want to be here. It's amazing to raise kids here cause the base ideals of the country are different. (nobody gets closed out of gan cause their family doesn't fit the mold - I read that on this forum). Grades are secondary till about 10th grade so your kids will have enough time to catch up.

Quote:

They'd go from the top of their class to the bottom.

It's just not like that here with little kids.

You're the one who will have the hard time. That's where you have to really want to be here. You have to learn to appreciate the Israelis and not constantly think of life in America. Things are very different here. You have to believe it's better.

grace413

Mon, Feb 10 2014, 8:39 am

Re the blog post. I'm sorry that the poster had such a terrible experience and glad that she is recovering.

In many couples, one spouse is more gung-ho about aliyah than the other. However, there's a world of difference between that and one spouse being totally not interested in coming.

I think aliyah can only be successful if you really, really want to be here. That makes it easier to cope with all the difficulties. Just to compare the blogger's initial encounter with life here: we came at the beginning of June, it was hot as hell, no a/c, no fridge, no oven, we slept on air mattresses for 6 weeks. I was in my mid 40's with 2 small kids and I like my creature comforts. But it didn't matter to me because all I said was "BH, I am back in Israel". Not that I'm such a big, tzadik, I knew the lift was coming and it was only temporary and I had just spent 10 years hating being in the States.

If you don't want to be here and you don't speak Hebrew and you don't find a community it's impossible.

ewa-jo

Mon, Feb 10 2014, 9:42 am

smss wrote:

That's awful, but it's really easy to make fun of Israelis... just put on a thick accent and start to act all "attitude-y" and say "I Israeli but I speak so good English. What you want? You want falafel? I make you falaefel' Sorry, but if anyone did this to me, I would make fun of them right back.. Israelis speak awful English, but what? who cares?

Most cashiers/waiters/office clerks are normal and will probably understand you if you speak in broken Hebrew or say a word with a strange accent.

I have been here almost 8 years and I can get by in most situations.. but I really don't care that I don't sound like a native Israeli.. so what? big deal.... lots of people here speak with accents. It also depends on what you do for work... if you will need Hebrew or not.

The biggest thing, IMO, is to live somewhere that you can make friends... as in, anglo families. If nothing else, they will be the ones who show you the ropes and help you.. Israelis can be nice, but there is always a cultural barrier.

amother

Mon, Feb 10 2014, 8:17 pm

OP here. Thanks everyone for being my sounding board.

Of course we would not make such a huge move if we weren't really into it! Right now we're not, right now we're just toying with the idea. As I said, we have a while to think about it - MINIMUM 4 years. We'd only go for it if/when we become certain that it is what we want. It's a pretty promising idea, though. I had always wanted to be there but sort of let that dream go when I married DH, who was pretty settled where he already was, and now that he's suggesting it again but at a different stage of life than I originally envisioned, it's time to re-evaluate for both/all of us.

Is there such a thing as a right-wing DL community that is also anglo-comfortable to the extent that you wouldn't be looked down on for not speaking Hebrew well?

It's nice to hear that the general opinion is that kids don't have a hard time at 6-10 years old. I would not have guessed that. I've heard scare stories about how kids go off the derech from not making the transition well... or if their family didn't integrate well enough...

If it's any clarification, I don't even get what went wrong in the "zeh sheli" story. I would probably say things like that multiple times a day. How DO you say "this is mine"?

Husband is in training in a medical-related field. He could do his job with no language, but getting along with coworkers and such is a big part of getting and staying employed...

5mom, thanks for the TV suggestion. I'm not the type to usually watch TV but in this case that actually sounds like a great way to gain exposure!