Is my friend lying?

amother

Wed, Mar 19 2014, 9:27 pm

zaq wrote:

Like this post.
One has no obligation to answer people who ask questions that are none of their business. OP's friend is in fact taking down a wall. That's not ALL she's doing, but then she is not under oath to tell the whole truth.

More troubling to me than your friend's veracity or lack thereof, is why you feel free to discuss her affairs with others at all. Unless you are your friend's press secretary, these people have no business asking you, and you have no business answering them. When they ask, smile sweetly and say "I'm sorry, Mindy's building plans are none of my business. If they're your business, ask Mindy."

OP here. Really zaq, in real life you would never give any information about anyone else? Like if a neighbor is away for 2 weeks and other friends find out and they know you are a close friend and ask you where the person went, would you not answer Florida or Israel - would you tell them "I'm sorry, Mindy's vacation is not my business. If it's your business, ask Mindy". To me this is not acceptable talk amongst close friends. If someone responded like that to me, I would consider getting new friends. I think it would be different if we were ch"v talking about a medical issue (that's private), but a vacation or construction, not such a big deal IMO, but based on all of the responses seems others don't feel this way. And I am by nature not a nosy kind of person, but I believe I might ask the vacation question, and it's not because of jealousy, more like conversation/curiosity, like if one of my daughters would tell me that her neighbors/friends parents are away for 2 weeks, I might ask where, is that a crime?

zaq

Wed, Mar 19 2014, 9:43 pm

amother wrote:

OP here. I would not say "She told me she's taking down a wall" since I consider that a lie based on my definition that a lie includes intentionally leaving out details. Also, I am trying to advise my friend I guess based on my own feelings which are that I personally would feel less close to a friend if they did this to me. I have a friend in Conneticut that could have not told me when she did work on her house cuz I would never see it, but since it was a big part of her life then she mentioned it to me as it was ongoing. That's how I think a friendship should be.

Frankly, OP, I think you;re getting too much into therapist mode here. Your friend wants privacy, to which she has every right. You are evidently a very close pal and she has confided her true plans to you. That's her choice. She chooses not to confide in other people; evidently she either doesn't feel as close to them or doesn't trust them to fargin her. This, too, is her right. Her relationship with other people, and whether or not they will trust her once they find out that she was holding out on them, is none of your business, just as her building plans are none of their business.

What you have the right to do is tell your friend that you feel dishonest telling people half-truths on her behalf; you do not have the right to tell people the whole truth over her objections. The clear and simple soluton is to refuse to discuss her business with other people. Anyone who wants to know Mindy's plans should ask Mindy, not you. I don't understand why you're having difficulty grasping this concept.

You don't have to, and should not be, discussing your friend's business with others, especially when she has made it very clear that she doesn't want them to know what's going on. If you can't respect her wishes, then you hardly qualify as a good friend. I certainly wouldn't trust YOU ever again if I asked you to keep something confidential and you kept pressuring me to let you tell.

zaq

Wed, Mar 19 2014, 9:55 pm

amother wrote:

Disingenuous much? The whole point of this thread AIUI is that OP wants to spill information that her friend specifically asked her not to share.

Whether my pal went to Israel for a two weeks vacation or to Parsippany for pizza or Detroit for a defensive driving course, if she ASKED ME NOT TO TELL PEOPLE, then my lip would indeed be zipped. And if you or anyone else can't respect that and feel that you can't be my friend because I choose to respect other people's desire for privacy--then defriend away with my blessing, because I don't care to be friends with you, either. But remember, dearie: a dog that will bring you a bone will carry one away. One day YOU might not want to share some bit of news with all and sundry, and you might just regret being surrounded by friends who are all only too ready to spill your beans.

busydev

Wed, Mar 19 2014, 10:05 pm

if asked say "she says she is tearing down the wall between the lr and dr"
this is true.

I dont think your friend is lying. she is just not telling the whole truth. she is allowed.

if this was for a shidduch, or something that actually effected anyone other then your friend then you may have a point. but here you dont. sorry.

if ppl get insulted, thats her problem. shes obv not gonna make a big party and walk thru to show it off.

amother

Wed, Mar 19 2014, 10:14 pm

zaq wrote:

OP here. Wow, you guys are so harsh, I actually think I am a good friend to others. Up until now, she had not asked me not to tell people, so I did not tell anyone anything since she told me not to tell. That said, I still think it's rude to tell close friends of ours that they should ask Mindy if they want to know about Mindy's construction. Am I wrong, is that not rude? There has to be a nicer way to say it then that.

amother

Wed, Mar 19 2014, 10:18 pm

amother wrote:

You are

amother

Wed, Mar 19 2014, 10:19 pm

busydev wrote:

Hmmmm....I guess this could work - "she says she is tearing down the wall between the lr and dr" or "she's not really talking about it, you have to ask her directly"

BTW, she is not any better friends with me then some other people that she is not telling. I'm sure I will get bashed for this, but I may have asked her if she is doing her kitchen and that is why she told me.

ShanaMatele

Wed, Mar 19 2014, 10:48 pm

amother wrote:

I find the line "I don't know 100%" to be very useful in situations like this.
After all, who ever does know 100%?

Something like "I don't know 100%, but I think they're taking down the wall between her living room and dining room." Then you don't have to change the subject in an abrupt way, but you could just move onto other topics.

It sounds like you're all very close, and you want to walk a fine line here between all involved. Could be that's just how you are all used to talking about each other, but just realize that it doesn't have to be that way. Your other friends have no right at all to come back and be upset with you later. How would they even know later that you knew when they didn't? In fact, if it ever does come out that your friend confided in you and you kept her confidence, then all your friends ought to be even more likely to trust you to discuss sensitive topics. I know I would Smile

imasinger

Thu, Mar 20 2014, 5:18 am

It sounds like you would have reason to be sorry you asked her for details, and now are privy to information that you would like to share with others, but have to respect the request not to do so.

Her way is not wrong, just different from yours. She prefers to say less about some things, you prefer to share more. She has given reasons that are halachically valid, and clearly l'shem shamayim.

What remains, causing your discomfort, is psychological rather than ethical. You feel that witholding information creates barriers between friends, and she does not.

Good friends can handle differences like this and not get upset.

There would have been absolutely nothing wrong with the CT friend choosing not to tell you about her remodel, either.

Please let this go and find a way to respect her wishes. Or let the friendship go if you truly cannot tolerate that style of communication. You will not (nor should you) change her mind, and by continuing to define her request for privacy as lying, you might end up justifing telling your other friends, which would be REALLY wrong.

Learning

Thu, Mar 20 2014, 6:48 am

I'm just not sure about this Ayin hora thing. I know you should not make a show of your stuff and not brag to avoid ayin hora. But I wouldn't go to that far as hiding stuff that is obvious. This is just paranoid and obnoxious. She have to trust Hashem and just say something like. "We are renovating the kitchen etc. ". people will be jealous or not anyway and Chazal said if you don't believe in ayin hora it doesn't effect you. Somebody did that to me. They kind of avoided a question and I realized its because they were afraid of ayin hora. It made me feel like they think I am jealous of their money and want them to loose it. It was insulted. I really am happy for them even though I can't afford the same. I would feel better if they told me what is obvious and not insult me by acting weird. It is not noisy to ask If something is happening in front of your face. It is rude not to be interested. But you are not her and you should just say : she is doing something idk Or something else which means that you don't know. It's not a lie you really don't know exactly what she is doing.

Frumdoc

Thu, Mar 20 2014, 6:52 am

How is you and anyone else discussing Mindy's business not loshon hora?

In my simple understanding, discussing someone else's life, unless there is a very good reason, is LH. And if she isn't public because she is afraid of jealousy, I can't think of a reason to break her confidence. It might be uncomfortable, but let them work it out themselves, or ask her directly.

tigerwife

Thu, Mar 20 2014, 7:09 am

My friends trust me BECAUSE I can keep their secrets. So you can still be a good friend without spilling her guts to your other friends. And friends don't NEED to know EVERY detail about each other's lives. I'm sure she has a good reason for keeping it quiet.

If you are worried about lying yourself by perpetuating her lie, there is plenty of ways to avoid this.
"I don't know EXACTLY."
"She told me she is taking down a wall."
And yes, if everyone else is bugging you, you CAN redirect them to her.

If anyone sees the new kitchen later and gets insulted from being left in the dark, that's probably the worst-case scenario and I doubt it will be long-lasting.

amother

Thu, Mar 20 2014, 7:55 am

part of maturing is realizing different people do things differently -- while you might feel you would be hurt if you did not know and later found out, it is her business to make her choice how to handle this. It's her business. If it affects her relationships, she will handle it. Your business is to respect her privacy and wish as to how to handle her business. Good practice. There is a time and a place to respond to do so as other posters have already beautifully illustrated.