Where should we live? Please help!!!

spinkles

Mon, May 07 2007, 8:37 pm

To the original poster--

I'm surprised at the somewhat negative spin Cleveland is getting. My husband and I moved here almost four years ago, and we love it. We checked out all our different options carefully, taking road trips etc., and Cleveland was our final, and very informed, choice. We are very happy with our decision. We checked out Chicago, Detroit, Waterbury, Los Angeles, Passaic, Philadelphia...considered Baltimore/Silver Spring but never visited...you might consider Milwaukee too.... But basically we wanted to get out of Monsey and be in a place with a more relaxed vibe, lower cost of living, but still a vibrant community with good schools.

We live in Cleveland Heights and love it. I truly don't know what people are talking about when they say it's snobby. I taught at Mosdos, and send my daughter there. It's warm and caring, and the girls are tremendously chesed-oriented. Most of the kids in my daughter's class wear Walmart and Target clothes, and plenty get stuff from the gemach. Most people don't have money. Everyone gets along with everyone else. In University Heights (where we lived the first year, before buying a house in Cleveland Heights), people tend to be less yeshivish, I.e. more professional, with degrees--and really nice, warm, friendly people, just like in Cleveland Heights. There are many BTs like ourselves who have moved to Cleveland simply because they like the warmth and low cost of living. All of us BTs stick together to help each other out and be "family" for each other, but it's not just the BTs who stick together--most of my neighbors are FFBs, and we all sit outside shmoozing and watching the kids play and having a great time. All my neighbors helped me so much when I had a sick newborn, with meals and babysitting etc. etc. etc. I am so happy we moved here.

It's just really warm and laidback here. Like, this morning I was trying on sheitels that the sheitelmacher had sent home with me to show my husband. I didn't like how one looked, and I looked out the window and saw one of my neighbors standing in the backyard with her kids, so I ran out and showed it to her, and she gave me ten minutes' worth of advice--really good advice. And on Shabbos, I ran next door to a different neighbor to ask them to explain a story that was on my daughter's parsha sheet, since I wanted to be able to talk about it with her at the Shabbos seudah--and the husband, who's a rebbe, happily interrupted their seudah to give it over with lots of detail, and they were so happy to do it. We're all in each others' backyards all the time, there's a real feeling of community. You never know whose kids are going to be digging in your sandbox when you glance out the window.

Cleveland, from what the "old-timers" have told me, is really growing, and kids who grew up here and come back for Yom Tov are shocked at how many new faces there are. In my circle of friends, there are young families from Monsey, Silver Spring, New York, Chicago, Cincinnati, Lakewood, and Florida who all moved here without family connections or job reasons, just because they really liked the community.

PM me if you want to discuss further!

amother

Tue, May 08 2007, 8:13 am

sprinkles- I was the one who posted some not so great things about Cleveland. Its very possible with the younger couples moving in, Cleveland is getting to be a different type.
However, the girls my age- within 3 years up or down, were mostly snobby- so, they wore old navy instead of banana republic if they couldn't afford it, but it was all into how you dressed. Its a known thing in cleveland that as soon as we'd walk into a room, before anyone said anything to you, they'd look you up and down (twice) and then comment, "Omg, I looooooooooove your outfit, where did you get it?" <--sarcasm dripping.
Maybe the younger girls are different. I hope so anyhow.
I never really minded the adults, (or most of them anyhow) so its possible that an adult moving there would enjoy it.

But I still must say though that you may not notice it, because you probably fit into the community- if your kids are in mosdos then you probably are more yeshivish. And even though university hts is less yeshivish, it still is the opposite extreme of cleveland hts- very modern, lotsa boy/girl stuff going on that shouldnt, materialistic. So if you're half way in between, like my family was, it puts you in a VERY tough spot. We were "not frum enough" for the hebrew academy, and "too frum" for mizrachi, so we stuck out like a sore thumb.

Also, because your kids are younger, you probably don't know enough of what goes on in the high schools. The girls high schools have a really strong reputation for girls going off the derech- greenfire can probably back up what I'm saying. There are way too many girls from nice frum shtark families that now are either completely irreligious, into drugs/cigarettes/boys, or are just much more modern than their families would like. (There was a scandal involving quite a few girls from mosdos and some boys. greenfire probably knows more about it.)
Additionally, in my class, out of 20 girls, one I know is completely completely not frum and living with her non jewish fiance in a trailer in a hick town in alabama.
I was almost off the derech completely- but someone b'h got involved in my life and turned me around. A lot of the girls listen to non jewish music and hang out with boys even though their parents would never allow it. Quite a few aren't shomer negiya and had boyfriends in high school. Some girls now you'll see pictures of them smoking hooka in tank tops and pants with a buncha boys. If you catch my drift. There are probably 5 girls from my class that are as frum as their parents are.
There is a big problem with the hanhala in these schools- there is SOMETHING being done that turns these girls off yiddishkeit. I don't want to enumerate now on the problems with the school, but it is a big issue...

greenfire

Tue, May 08 2007, 9:02 am

you know what sweetie - I hear what you are saying obviously ... but you are coming from a teens perspective and not a mother's perspective and you have to take that into account ... while your descriptions may have a lot of relevance there is good and bad everywhere and like I mentioned above there really is no place that is free of fault.

what sprinkles is saying has it's good point if you like that sort of living and fit it -

but imagine if you don't and you are cut from your own unique sense of everything ... then sitting in the bungalow coloney doesn't work ... nor do they invite you in ... yes go ahead ask greenfire and her kids ... she will tell you - my friends don't care if I'm alone on shabbos and won't invite me for fear my dd with torquoise hair may want to come too - or even that one of their sons will "freak" (take that as you want) when they see her or their dds will go off the derech ... come on be for real ... another friends husband said she shouldn't associate with me cause once I walked into the "wrong" shul - and she too stopped inviting me over ... then you ask why people drink and go off the derech ... my kids have gone to mosdos to hebrew academy and to bet sefer ... you know what ... they are all the same ... either you fit in or you don't ... yes too frum - too careless - too rich - and when you leave they never associate with you afterwards ... unless they too have their issues - oh is that where we belong a group called the misfits ...

this happens everywhere ... you can only notice in your own backyard and if it happens to you ... that is why I am who I am despite anybody else

amother

Tue, May 08 2007, 9:03 am

amother wrote:

There are way too many girls from nice frum shtark families that now are either completely irreligious, into drugs/cigarettes/boys, or are just much more modern than their families would like. (There was a scandal involving quite a few girls from mosdos and some boys. greenfire probably knows more about it.)
.............
There is a big problem with the hanhala in these schools- there is SOMETHING being done that turns these girls off yiddishkeit. I don't want to enumerate now on the problems with the school, but it is a big issue...

What a refresing thought, NEBACH. Atleast someone isn't blaming the parents, for a change. Without naming anyone or any school specifically, what do you think is causing the problem you describe?

amother

Tue, May 08 2007, 9:14 am

amother wrote:

What a refresing thought, NEBACH. Atleast someone isn't blaming the parents, for a change. Without naming anyone or any school specifically, what do you think is causing the problem you describe?

I'm afraid I'll give away myself too much with this post, but here it is anyhow.

1) No hashkafa classes until 12th grade. So any questions you do have must wait till 12th grade. I left frum high schools before I made it to 12th grade.
2) Non approachable teachers- not the type that you know you could ask them a question without them looking at you like you fell off a planet. Did you read greenfires post about some teacher calling her kid an apikores and telling her she might as well jump off the empire state building? That's the type of teachers you're dealing with.
3) Teachers not accepting of other veiws- its my way or the highway. Anything less than perfect you might as well not be doing anything. So if you know you're not the "teachers type", the teacher won't even think of giving you some help.
4) Young teachers straight out of sem. These teachers don't know the answers to questions posed to them, don't know really enough about teenagers and how they need to be dealt with, etc. They aren't chosen because they're good teachers, but rather because a) their mother is a teacher b) their father is on the board of trustees c) their family runs cleveland d) they were a good student in high school. And these young teachers out of sem grow up to be older not good teachers.
5) Passing off chumra as halacha. So once the teen finds out that what the teacher says is halacha really isn't, this teen decides that all halacha isn't.
6) No taamei hamitzvos classes. Just halacha halacha and more halacha. Never why, or some insight behind the mitzva so you can appreciate it.
7) It's too litvish- too cold and calculating, and not enough teaching about the beauty of a torah lifestyle and about what your relationship with hashem should be like. If a person just sees judaism as a list of "Don't"s, is it a wonder she doesn't want to be frum?

All these are issues with these schools. However, if some parent makes sure to inculcate their kids with good torah values, and teaches their kids a love of yiddishkeit at home, these kids could stay strong on the path. But not every parent has the ability to instill these things- so the torah institution should instill these values.
The problem is that they don't.
6)

amother

Tue, May 15 2007, 5:04 am

I've lived in Cleveland for the past 8 years and I'm not sure how to respond to this discussion because I have such mixed feelings about it. I actually live very close to sprinkles and have a very different experience, but I don't think it's completely the fault of the community. I agree fully with greenfire that there are problems in every community. I come from a community that is completely opposite of Cleveland - very openminded, extremely warm and welcoming, the schools are all about hashkafa, not materialisitic, etc. But that community has other MAJOR issues. (ex. intellectual snobbery, too openminded, a subtle lack of kavod haTorah and rabbanim.) Cleveland has some wonderful attributes (the cost of living is a big one!!!) and if you find your niche here you can be very happy. It's all a matter of feeling accepted. sprinkles, I know who you are and, aside from having your BT support system that you mentioned, you also fit the mold in terms of how you (and your dh) dress, talk, etc. DH & I are less conventional (I don't mean that to insult you - I'm actually jealous of you in a way) and whether it's our imagination or not, we feel a bit like outcasts around here. We also sort of fall between two catergories. We're not BT's, but we're FFB's who were off the derech at one point in our lives (pre-marriage). B"H, we are really growing, but we don't feel comfortable anywhere. It's definitely partly our fault. DH is extremely busy and very anti-social and I am very shy and also tend to keep more to myself. As I mentioned, I come from a community where these things wouldn't matter because people are so accepting in terms of yiddishkeit and unconventionalism, but I'm not sure we'd be so happy there either, for other reasons.
About the schools, particularly Yavne (girls HS), I think things have begun to change for the better. There are some newer teachers who are more open-minded and are actually very good teachers. They've also started taking a lot of out of town girls who are forcing the school to deal with things a bit differently. I think there are more families who are looking to help kids who don't fit in and there's a general movement towards this in the community. They still have a way to go, but at least it's heading in the right direction.
I have so much more to say about this topic as it is something I think about daily, but I'll stop. This isn't even the topic of the thread and I'm probably boring most people . . .

spinkles

Sun, May 20 2007, 6:05 pm

Quote:

sprinkles, I know who you are and, aside from having your BT support system that you mentioned, you also fit the mold in terms of how you (and your dh) dress, talk, etc. DH & I are less conventional (I don't mean that to insult you - I'm actually jealous of you in a way) and whether it's our imagination or not, we feel a bit like outcasts around here. We also sort of fall between two catergories. We're not BT's, but we're FFB's who were off the derech at one point in our lives (pre-marriage). B"H, we are really growing, but we don't feel comfortable anywhere. It's definitely partly our fault. DH is extremely busy and very anti-social and I am very shy and also tend to keep more to myself.

Amother above:

I don't know who you are, but please PM me or call me (we're in the mikvah book) if you would like. I remember feeling the way you felt when we were living in a different community. I'm so sorry that you're feeling this way. Sad

Maybe you'd like to come for a seudah or (if you have kids) for a playdate?

You don't have to exactly "fit the mold" to be part of the community, although of course it helps. But many of my friends are very different from me. As long as someone is nice, why not be friends with them? I don't care about trivialities. However, I am shy and somewhat overwhelmed with kids and work, so if you know me and I have seemed unfriendly to you, I apologize!!! I hope that's not the case.

ssbarnes

Mon, May 21 2007, 7:22 am

DH is in the military and we get to move around every 3-5 years. We have lived in many different places across the US and in Spain. Each location has its pros and cons. As our children get older, what we want/need in a community changes. The places we loved when the boys were little, would not be able to come close to meeting our needs now. Also, what we want in a community is different from others.

When we were in S. Diego, we had a wonderful school, markets, restaurants, etc. Anything we couldn't find locally was only as far as L.A. The cost of living is high and we both worked. The school gave us scholarships for the children which made the tuition affordable.

Now in VA I stay at home with the children and homeschool since the day school could not meet our needs. Had we known this before moving here, we would have made other choices. However, since it is only for 3 years, we decided to keep the family together.

However, I am considering moving down the south FL for the next school year while DH finishes his last year here. In order to afford that, I will have to go back to work.

$80K a year is enough to live in most US communities.