Is it possible to have a shomer negiya relationship?

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ectomorph

Fri, Aug 01 2014, 6:04 pm

amother wrote:

When I was a teenager (14-16) I dated a cousin off and on for 2 years. We were completely shomer negiyah and never slipped up once. This, I think, is because we kept the laws of yichud which are there to protect from these types of things. We were both committed to being shomer and our families cooperated by letting us have "dates" in the living room or taking us out of family field trips, etc.our parents felt that it would be healthy outlet and that when we got old enough we might marry and then we would have grown up together. We didn't, but we didn't lose anything by dating either. I just wonder if maybe it created too much pressure to marry young in general tho. But that is how they used to do things. People used to marry young and date for a year or more. And there was probably some fooling around but probably not everyone.

Well that's the way it should be done.

amother

Fri, Aug 01 2014, 6:14 pm

superdanni wrote:

I got stuck on 'I dated a cousin'

Jews allow it Smile

sequoia

Fri, Aug 01 2014, 6:46 pm

amother wrote:

Jews allow it Smile

Jews allow eating junk food all day -- there's no halacha against it. Doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Today we know that it's better not to have children with your cousin. Ok?

MaBelleVie

Fri, Aug 01 2014, 7:03 pm

I was assuming it was a distant cousin...

causemommysaid

Fri, Aug 01 2014, 7:44 pm

amother wrote:

ewww. what possessed you to date your cousin?

causemommysaid

Fri, Aug 01 2014, 7:46 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

I was assuming it was a distant cousin...

how distant is distant?

freidasima

Sat, Aug 02 2014, 4:05 pm

Haven't seen this thread in a day or so. Well it's pretty easy to know my kids are all virgins, including my son who hasn't seen 17 for 7 years already lol! because they do mention it.
Why? Because at least for the girls one of the big problems is that some of the guys they are set up with on dates who are older want to get into their pants. And make absolutely no secret of that fact. They have learned not to go out with anyone who even is a whif of "dati lite" over the age of whatever because those guys all seem to want experienced girls who put out, and as both my girls have said to me - we aren't experienced, we don't put out and the first man who we will see without clothes will be on our wedding night.

They are horrified at some of what is going on in so called lite dati circles and have told their friends never to set them up with guys from that group.

As for my son, he has said many a time to my husband that he is not interested in "used goods" and is also not interested in being "used goods" before he gets married. That simple. It is a topic that is openly discussed in our house considering what kind of house we live in and the kind of discussions we have. We (dh and I) never ask or pressure, the statements came from the kids. Now of course they could be lying but they would have absolutely no reason to, or to volunteer the information about what their date wanted and why they cut a date short and picked up and left the coffee shop after fifteen minutes (when the guy suggested that they go someplace later and get horizontal). So I wouldn't be so fast to say that my kids aren't virgins particularly when they are proud of it and say so themselves.

Ruchel

Sat, Aug 02 2014, 4:58 pm

I've had a few lite girls tell me openly they don't like the shomer negia boys. lol

Frumdoc

Sat, Aug 02 2014, 8:01 pm

I don't believe in intimacy outside marriage, but I wouldn't call someone who has done that "used goods".

Just saying. I don't think one loses intrinsic value (irrespective of ketuba values etc) by having zex. There are other valid reasons not to, but not this.

naturalmom5

Sat, Aug 02 2014, 11:50 pm

FS , I knew many frum boys even back in the day that were very frum on dates but weren't virginss
Just saying

freidasima

Sun, Aug 03 2014, 12:04 am

It always existed but usually those guys had often slept with non Jewish girls a la that horrible statement that Shi#ksas don't count. I remember them as well. Here in EY it's a lot rarer. Anyhow that's not the topic being discussed. I too don't like the expression "used goods" but I wasn't the one who said it and it's the common parlance (or the Hebrew equivalent thereof) so...

DrMom

Sun, Aug 03 2014, 2:16 am

Ritty wrote:

Freidasima, it seems to me that your teenage years were eons ago. Centuries ago. Open your eyes... Girls will be girls with urges and boys will be boys with urges regardless of whether normal touch is accepted or not.

Are you really living in that bubble???C'mon.

You know what I find odd? There have been threads in the intimacy section in which posters have insisted that their DHs or DSs never pleasure themselves. Other write in saying it's natural for men to do this, and it is highly unlikely that their DH or DS has never done this, and these posters INSIST that their DH/DS have yirat shemayim and therefore would NEVER do such a thing. Okay, fine.

Then some posters come along and say that their DD is in a relationship but is SN, and these same posters INSIST that natural urges would make it virtually IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to resist the temptation.

This seems very inconsistent to me.

imasoftov

Sun, Aug 03 2014, 2:42 am

freidasima wrote:

They are horrified at some of what is going on in so called lite dati circles and have told their friends never to set them up with guys from that group.

How are these horrible dati lite people identified? Do they have tattoos that say "lite" on the back of the neck? Is there a code involving a handkerchief in a back pocket? Do they have a secret handshake?

Tablepoetry

Sun, Aug 03 2014, 3:58 am

freidasima wrote:

It always existed but usually those guys had often slept with non Jewish girls a la that goodnt that Shi#ksas don't count. I remember them as well. Here in EY it's a lot rarer. Anyhow that's not the topic being discussed. I too don't like the expression "used goods" but I wasn't the one who said it and it's the common parlance (or the Hebrew equivalent thereof) so...

I hate the expression 'used goods'.
But at least your son is being fair and sincere, and avoiding being 'used goods' himself. That's a sign of a good man.
OTOH, those young men who don't want women with a past but refuse to consider themselves as 'merchandise' or capable of being 'used goods' - those guys infuriate me. You know, the old double standard.

freidasima

Sun, Aug 03 2014, 8:00 am

Ima - Dati lite is quite identifyable by dress, size of kipa, lack of tzitzis bor boys and the fact that they rarely daven more than once a day if that much. Sometimes it's just laying tefilin, shma and shmone esreh, sometimes not even that. Girls daven maybe on shabbos if they go to shul. The girls wear pants, often sleeveless, sometimes low cut, etc. None are makpid on saying brochos or on washing before bread except shabbos. They keep shabbos but aren't necessarily makpid on the intricacies of bishul/heating up on a plata and they keep kosher pretty well. It's more than what was called "mesorati" which was making kiddush on friday nite and turning on the tv but keeping strict kosher, but less than what we call normative orthodox.

Why would my girls even have considered a date with someone from that group? Usually because they were cajoled/coerced by a neighbor, co-worker etc. with the words "X comes from a good religious home (they often do) and you can bring him back to being fully orthodox". So they have had one or two really nice dates with nice guys like that but there was no chemistry but often the guys after a certain age are overtly looking for only one thing. And my girls aren't into that.

Table - I agree, I hate the term but my son is honest and straight-arrow, sometimes too much so. A real square interested in a good game plan for studies and making a living. He has a girlfriend like that too, an incredible square, lives at home, a sweet smart girl, her big brother is her best guy friend (which is how she met ds) and her best girlfriend has been that since first grade. As he says, it's a lot easier to find a nice honest straight-arrow girl than for a girl there days to find a nice honest straight-arrow guy of which there are much fewer on the market.

monseychick

Sun, Aug 03 2014, 1:20 pm

freidasima wrote:

Very informative....

In other words... those to the right of FS are fanatics....

To the left of FS are heretics or non-Orthodox..

I'm not trying to insult you. I just want to understand this...

freidasima

Sun, Aug 03 2014, 2:15 pm

Huh Monsey, ..where in the world did you come up with that one? What does "to the right of FS" or "to the left of FS" mean? And You seem to be the only one claiming that they are heretics or non orthodox if they are left of me or fanatics if they are right of me, I never wrote or claimed it so what is your agenda here my dear to put words in my mouth? I think that you have quite an agenda so it would be nice if you said it out loud instead of making innuendoes and then trying to cover up by saying "you just want to understand"...

There is a big discussion here in EY about how "dati" the group calling itself "Dati lite" really is.
There are many things Dati lite does or doesn't do which is far from what we would call mainstream Dati in EY. Topics on which there is absolutely no halochic wiggle room - things like
- eating food without making any brochos. Another example, a man not putting on tefilin daily. There are many many Dati Lite for whom those things are not even on their radar. They may define themselves as Orthodox or rather "Dati" here in EY as they claim that they keep shabbos and kashrus and that makes them Orthodox, but they are certainly not what is accepted anywhere in EY as mainstream Dati. Or if they are, they are a very very different kind of "Dati" than the normative definition of Dati here in EY. This isn't "FS's definition". That's the normative EY definition.

Here's another example. It is common for Dati lite to add water from the faucet to food being heated up on the plata or blech on shabbos or to the shabbos kettle if it gets low in water. In no groups - not sefaradi, not ashkenazi, is there even the slightest loophole to be able to do such a thing - it is pure chillul shabbos and if you are frum you can't drink that water or eat that food on shabbos if you know that such a thing was done. My kids have often been invited to their friends living in the Bitza here in Katamon and have seen it being done and ate nothing at that meal.

What is "being left of FS"? For me right and left are political terms not religious ones, maybe because I am Israeli. Doing "less" or "more" halochically? It really depends on what the thing being done is. There is a tremendous gamut of behavior that is halochically ok, particularly in the field of social constructs meaning bein odom lechaveiro. There are many leniencies which are totally acceptable for frum women in various groups, such as not fasting minor fasts, or being yotzei davening by saying the first posuk of shma once a day and no more. Same when it comes to tznius. etc. Big big gamut of acceptable behavior that has some kind of halochic backing.

But I have yet to find a halochic backing for a man not putting on tefiling daily, or a person eating without a brocho rishona or achrona, or for taking water from the faucet to boil on shabbos except for a choleh sheyesh bo sakono...if you have a source for that being mainstream orthodox or dati of any kind I'd be interested in hearing it.

amother

Sun, Aug 03 2014, 10:37 pm

Hmm. So here we are on erev tisha b'av judging, bad-mouthing, making divisions, and separating ourselves from our fellow Jews.

monseychick

Sun, Aug 03 2014, 10:52 pm

I apologize, FS.. I think I follow what you are trying to say. In America, its not as complicated. There is Chasidish, Yeshivish , YU and various flavors in between. What you are describing by Dati L, is basically Conservadox..

I was just confused, because hundreds of your posts seem to be attacking Yeshiviish/Charedim and now suddenly you are talking about less frum people.

More in line with this thread, NEVER date someone to be mekariv them , it seldomly works and usually backfires..

mtowns

Mon, Aug 04 2014, 12:26 am

B"H

Great book that deals with OPs origional question. All chapters are online.

http://www.chabad.org/library/.....y.htm

(Why doesn't anyone blush anymore by rabbi Manis Friedman)

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