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Elbowmac

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 12:15 am

OP, that you made a post asking if it is necessary to "build" your child's immune system and how exactly to go about that process, makes me concerned that you do not have a good grasp about the finer details of the immune system or how it functions. Please, please take a little bit of time to read up on the subject and educate yourself about immunity, before making the decision not to vaccinate your child.

Your child already has a "good and healthy" immune system. The innate immune system is inborn. Hashem, in His wonderous ways, has created your child with a system in place, ready to fight off anything the body does not recognize as "self." This system, however, is rather nonspecific and the level of immune response to a particular pathogen will always be the same, no matter the times of exposure. Certainly, innate immunity is an important component in refuah, but in and of itself, it is certainly not enough.

Adaptive immunity, however--a second immune system which Hashem created to compliment and enhance innate immunity, is forever changing. This immune system functions using immunological memory. The more times someone is exposed to a pathogen, the better, stronger, faster, more effective, and more efficient the immune response becomes. Vaccinations make use of this fact.

Innate and adaptive immunity work together, and both are needed. One cannot "build" or strengthen an adaptive immune response without exposure to whatever antigen caused the immunological reaction in the first place. In the case of illness, this means exposure to the disease. Vaccinations offer this exposure in a controlled manner, such that the immune system has time to "work on" combating a disease efficiently and effectively far in advance. Thus, should exposure to the disease happen again, the immune system is quickly able to overcome it.

The immune system improves and becomes "good and healthy," by encountering pathogens. I.e. by allowing it to function in the way Hashem created it to function.

Last edited by Elbowmac on Mon, Aug 11 2014, 12:26 am; edited 1 time in total

heidi

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 12:24 am

Call Chava Willig Levy (a public figure in Woodmere who speaks publicly about her challenges and triumphs) who contracted polio as a child (no vaccinations then) and is in a wheelchair with limited use of her hands. Ask her if you and your child can visit to learn the wonders of non vaccination.

Hashem_Yaazor

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 10:40 am

I want to commend all you posters for supporting OP and following what she asked for in her title. Good job!

(And then stop complaining on "pro-vax only" threads that someone who dares to think out of the box posts something a bit different.)

OP, this is not the best place to post this, as you can see.

flowerpower

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 11:52 am

This is my favorite post of the day. I loved each and every reply!!!!! Glad to see that there are still many people that didn't fall into the "in natural we trust" trap yet. Thank you!

nylon

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 12:33 pm

The serious answer? You can't "strengthen the immune system."

This is the choice: You can vaccinate or you can risk becoming sick. None of the advice offered by the first amother will help. Gluten? Homeopathy? (No active ingredients in homeopathic "medicines".). Overusing antibiotics is a problem but the main problem is that it increases resistance. Since many VPDs are viruses, it doesn't matter. Measles and chicken pox aren't affected by antibiotics. Of all the things on the list, only breastfeeding may be protective. The effect isn't huge, and it isn't permanent.

It is good, in general, to eat a healthy, balanced diet and keep yourself in good health. But most immunological conditions have nothing at all to do with diet.

Try reading this:
http://www.health.harvard.edu/.....m.htm

amother

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 1:34 pm

Wow, what absolutely obnoxious responses.

OP, my strongest suggestion is to avoid processed foods as much as possible, sticking with whole foods and low sugar (which does NOT mean subbing fake sugars).
Also important is soap, shampoos, etc. Use natural, organic products. Keep hazardous cleaning chemicals out of your home. It's not just about keeping a child from getting into them and drinking them, G-d forbid, but also keeping your whole family from breathing in that toxic stuff.
Good luck, and please don't feel pressure and intimidation from hateful fear mongers.

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 1:43 pm

Hateful fear mongers may have a legitimate fear to monger though! Including the health of their own family members...

OP, good luck making the right decision. But please do not "decide not to vaccinate" before doing PROPER research, including how you are going to keep your kids immune system healthy. As a responsible mother, I'm sure you realize that you can't come to such a decision as NOT to vaccinate before figuring out a healthy alternative plan of action.

Elbowmac

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 1:44 pm

Wow, what an absolutely dangerous response.

OP, fact: avoiding processed foods and sticking with whole foods and low sugar, or only using organic shampoos will NOT protect your child from measles, polio, rubella, etc.If sharing factual information is hateful fear mongering, then so be it, but at least it's truthful.

Will it help him live a healthier lifestyle and educate him to make healthier choices as an adult? Sure. But it sure won't do anything for his immunity, which is what the OP was asking about.

amother

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 1:45 pm

nylon wrote:

This is just not true. You may not be able to help your child avoid diseases and viruses but by avoiding all substances that weaken the immune system and avoiding those that overload the bodies natural detoxification pathways (sugar/toxins/preservatives/food colorings/pesticides/chemicals etc.), the body can more efficiently handle an invading pathogen.
Antibiotics do reduce the immune system. They kill off pathogenic bacteria as well as beneficial ones that keep pathogens at bay. When there is an imbalance the intestinal walls become permeable to all sorts of toxins that can significantly impact ones health. If a person has impaired gut flora gluten is a common substance that permeates into the blood stream causing many inflammatory and auto immune responses. Homeopathic remedies and essential oils reduce the need for antibiotics. Probiotics daily help populate beneficial gut flora thereby strengthening the immune system.

Dolly Welsh

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 1:53 pm

You can be in stout health and still get a disease. Because you are in stout health you will have a better chance of surviving the disease. The disease has a mortality rate. You might be part of that, and die. Your previous stout health just gives you a better chance. If you had been vaccinated

YOU WOULD NOT HAVE GOT THE DISEASE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

There are two anti-vax posts up there, and they are entirely emotion. "Out of box", "Hate" Fear" "Toxic" are not words of science, they are the emotion-mongering.

Nobody here hates OP or wants her to have a problem.

OP's original question hasn't been answered.

For the simple reason that it doesn't have an answer.

Or, she is not open to the only answer. The only way to "boost" or stimulate immunity to a specific disease is to get it. Or to get the vax, which is the same thing only milder.

If you don't like the vax, you don't like the disease. It is the same thing. You cannot see the disease as a natural part of life many or some children can survive (although the scars from chicken pox don't look nice) and then say you are anti-vax. The vaccines are the same thing.

Jenny herself has backed off from her previous thinking, I have the impression.

As for the general ickiness of modern chemicals that's another matter altogether. Most of us seem to be keeping clean with no ill effects with commercially common soaps, detergents and so forth.

It is important to realize that diseases are specific. It's not like there is just one thing "disease".

We live in nature. Some of it is good for us and some of it isn't. Cabbages are edible and poison ivy isn't. That is normal.

"Hate" has nothing to do with it. Poison ivy doesn't hate us.

The irritated tone you are noting which you call "hate" is our politely repressed anguish at the prospect of losing yet another Jew. We know this kid may die. We have never met him or her, but as there are only a million and a half Torah observant Jews in the world, that bothers us. We have also been taught to love our fellow Jew. This is Imamother. We are sisters here.

My private take is that somebody in the shadows would like the Jews, particularly the visibly religious kind with the hats and the long skirts, to be publicly perceived as Dirty Jew, Source of Disease.

Which will be no lie. We will indeed be the Source Of Disease People, if we don't vax, and are known for it. Those of us the diseases don't kill may be pitch-forked by other people, who see a group of us, and start saying, Christine, don't go near them, they don't vax.

We are having problems anyway, the last thing we need is to get sick and die and be hated - ah, there's some genuine hate - for the justified reason that we become killers of other people's children and old people.

So yeah, we're upset with you. But it's only out of love.

So enough with the "hate" thingy.

amother

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 2:33 pm

Your thinking scares me. Not only for your child but for the rest of us who are subjected to your thinking by default. My niece is choosing not to vaccinate her child. Every time they go near my elderly father I am terrified of what he might be exposed to. Several years ago he had shingles and suffered terribly.
My husband just had an organ transplant and his immune system is deliberately suppressed not to reject the new organ. He is very vulnerable. There are many people out there like him. We have accepted the concept of statistical safety by creating nut free policies in schools and bakeries to ensure that we don't accidentally, unnecessarily risk the lives of those who have these allergies. Even if we don't agree philosophically with the inconvenience and you are personally spared the challenge of these allergies. It is accepted practice that you create space. Let us all know that your child is not vaccinated so we can keep our distance. It's like the smoker not accepting the damage their 2nd hand smoke is causing to those who are forced to suffer because of their nasty habit. If you are playing statistics you know that statistically you shouldn't get into a car or get on a plane or ride a bike or cross the street because people get hurt and killed. Can you live with being the source of hurting others?

amother

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 2:53 pm

Does anyone know anyone personally that got sick from someone unvaccinated? My neighbor who doesn't give shots because it 'weakens the immune system' doesn't believe that she's risking hurting other people because she never saw anyone got sick from her kids, so it must just be not true.

amother

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 3:05 pm

For those who are immunosupressed (adults and not babies) why do u think they are at risk for diseases they have been vaccinated against? Btw for those who vaccinate there is a shingles vaccine and NO I will not put neurotoxins in my child because someone else can get the measles BUT I will.avoid eating peanuts in their presence.

rachel91

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 3:05 pm

I would think that if the parents of an unvaccinated child saw that the child was sick, or something was amiss, they wouldn't let the child leave the house, before getting him/ her checked. Or am I wrong?
I don't think unvaccinated kids are ' walking diseases'.

rachel91

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 3:08 pm

Another question: how could someone vaccinated get sick from someone unvaccinated?
I do give my kids all vaccines, besides chicken pox, since it's not very common here. (They both had it already anyways).

Dolly Welsh

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 3:25 pm

rachel91 wrote:

They couldn't.

The people who are going to be infected by non-vax kids (some of whom won't make it) are:

1) the infants under six months of age who are too young to be vaccinated. It's a choke point, that period of time in your life. You have to get through it with no help, except whatever your mother's milk can give you, which may or may not be enough.

2) middle-aged or old people whose childhood vaccinations have worn off and don't work.

3) anybody at all of any age who has had a cancer, or an organ transplant, and who therefore has reduced immunity, meaning, ess ability to fight.

Such people should not go to dark back alleys in bad neighborhoods in the middle of the night. They are vulnerable. They can't fight back.

Non vaxed kids are taking them to this back alley, where they won't do very well.

So, the non-vaxers are going to be reducing the population. There will be infants who won't survive infancy. And, the expensive old people who use up medical budgets and are often not working productively anyway, or some of them aren't, are going to be scarcer also.

It's all very practical social engineering, but not very humane.

Just my humble opinion.

So yes, YOUR CHILDREN ARE GOING TO DIE. AND SOMEBODY OUT THERE WANTS THEM TO.

There is more than one way to skin a cat and there is more than one way to kill Jews.

MaBelleVie

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 3:27 pm

Of course vaccinated people can get those diseases. Efficacy varies widely, depending on the vaccine, but absolutely none are 100% effective.

Dolly Welsh

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 3:29 pm

rachel91 wrote:

No, they are.

Because there is a period of time, and it can be a week long, when the sick kid can give it to others, but looks fine himself. At the beginning. Or he/she just looks as if he has a little runny nose perhaps that isn't yet noticeable.

Does that answer your question?

rachel91

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 3:31 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

Yes, thanks! Because I couldn't possibly understand why everyone was talking about non-vaccinated kids as if they had contracted all the diseases in the world already.Ch'v.

amother

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 3:32 pm

amother wrote:

Why aren't you scared your own kid could get measles?

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