Hot chani | Imamother

ElTam

Mon, Aug 18 2014, 11:31 pm

I am going to avoid the hot chani term, but I will tell you my my issue of women who are frum but dress in a way that is not tznius.

1. I'm not worried about my husband looking or seeing. He works in the secular world and we lived in Southern California. He's seen it all, and it's up to him to look away and/or control his reactions. He's a big boy.

2. I am happy with how I look and how I dress. I have a few pounds to lose, but I'm working on it. I actually hate to shop and don't have the time or inclination to follow trends. I have no jealously issues.

My issue is this: I have two daughters that I am trying to raise in the proper derech. And it is very confusing for them to see women they know are frum wearing dresses that are so tight you can count their ribs, skirts that are so tight you can read what brand underpants they are wearing, and four inch heels stiletto heels. I don't want to speak lashon hara about these women but I also need my daughters to understand what is tznius and what is not tznius. To me, dressing like this is putting a stumbling block before a fellow Jew. By all means, look beautiful. Look fashionable. Look put-together and hip. But I would hope people would think twice before wearing things that are clearly outside the bounds of tznius.

Lady Godiva

Mon, Aug 18 2014, 11:49 pm

ElTam wrote:

.

My issue is this: I have two daughters that I am trying to raise in the proper derech. And it is very confusing for them to see women they know are frum wearing dresses that are so tight you can count their ribs, skirts that are so tight you can read what brand underpants they are wearing, and four inch heels stiletto heels. I don't want to speak lashon hara about these women but I also need my daughters to understand what is tznius and what is not tznius. To me, dressing like this is putting a stumbling block before a fellow Jew. By all means, look beautiful. Look fashionable. Look put-together and hip. But I would hope people would think twice before wearing things that are clearly outside the bounds of tznius.

Chinuch of your children is your obligation, not others'. First of all, you lead by example. Your daughters will see what you wear and they will understand what you feel is right. When you take them shopping you can point out what looks right according to your opinion, and what should not be worn.
Secondly, just like you'd tell your daughters in a nice way that just because somebody else says/does something, does not mean it's the right thing to say/do according to your rules, so too you can tell them that just because others wear something, it does not mean that it's the right thing to wear according to your minhag/shitah/rules....
You can't shelter them from the way others dress and nobody needs to alter their mode of dress to ease your parenting.

penguin

Mon, Aug 18 2014, 11:58 pm

I happen to have heard a shiur from Rebbetzin Heller today (you can hear it on TorahAnytime.com but you'll have to sign up).

Anyhow, she explained that when men deteriorate from the ideals of morality, they become "hunters" and when women deteriorate, they become "prey" I.e. want to be desired by men. And this is what we see in society at large.

She also said that it's ridiculous to say that you should 'look beyond the externals', because once you are older than about 8 years old, you are choosing how you dress, and that means you're choosing the image you want to project - whether matronly, intelligent, with-it, dignified, alluring, cute, young, zexy etc.

(She mentioned that it's hard if a husband isn't on board with a woman upgrading her tznius, though most men are, because they want to keep their relationship unique & not have their wife attracting other men.

Some men, though, go to a wedding, & the men around them are "hunters" discussing the other women, who are dressed in clothing that would fit in the palm of my hand (says Rebbetzin Heller). And the man wants to feel that his wife is also desirable. So the woman needs to work on her self-esteem and realize that she's more than a body and that Hashem knows her true worth.)

I hope I have not distorted the ideas. The shiur is called "Inner Beauty" & it's worth listening to!

heidi

Tue, Aug 19 2014, 12:44 am

ElTam wrote:

I
My issue is this: I have two daughters that I am trying to raise in the proper derech. And it is very confusing for them to see women they know are frum wearing dresses that are so tight you can count their ribs, skirts that are so tight you can read what brand underpants they are wearing, and four inch heels stiletto heels. I don't want to speak lashon hara about these women but I also need my daughters to understand what is tznius and what is not tznius. To me, dressing like this is putting a stumbling block before a fellow Jew. By all means, look beautiful. Look fashionable. Look put-together and hip. But I would hope people would think twice before wearing things that are clearly outside the bounds of tznius.

Anytime my daughter wants to wear something I feel is inappropriate I tell that I don't ask her to do anything I don't. We were in shul and she pointed out a girl wearing a shirt I had told her needed a shell underneath it, without the shell. I answered, "look at her mother." I know it's politically incorrect, but at the end of the day, your child is influenced and molded by you, not by the hot chani's of the world.

Tablepoetry

Tue, Aug 19 2014, 2:49 am

debsey wrote:

It is not about comfort. It is about fulfilling another need. Whatever that need is, it's one that the woman is willing to go through a lot of discomfort for. And that's sad. Once you are tolerating discomfort, do it for a worthy goal.

Who said that 'Comfort' should be a woman's primary goal when getting dressed? Where did that come from? And that anyone who wears anything less comfortable should be doing it for something worthy? (I'm guessing for something like tzniut?)

Many, many women don't dress to be comfortable first and foremost, but to look good. Looking good for some means looking professional, for others it means looking more fashionable or younger or thinner, or classier, or, yes, s*xier.

Why do you think it's sad that a woman prefer to look good (or what she believes looks good), rather than be comfortable? Why is it sad that she is 'fulfilling another need', as you say? What is inherently wrong with this need?

Now someone will of course chime in and say one could look good and still be modest, but that's not my point here at all. My point is that in order to 'look good', many women believe it's necessary to compromise their comfort. It's their conscious choice. Not something 'sad'.

Do you know how many women get home and start to strip out of their street gear? They've chosen to wear something less than comfortable outside in order to project an image. Chosen to do a lot of uncomfortable things in the name of looking good - facials, make up, waxing, laser, nylons, heels, buttons, zippers, jewellery, bras, clips, spanx - the list goes on.

And by the way, as a side note, it's a spectrum -- beauty and s*xiness greatly overlap. I really don't understand all those who say 'be beautiful, not s*xy'. Very very often, they overlap. They certainly don't juxtapose! So all these 'hot chanis' may very well just be defining beauty in a s*xier way (not that I personally think this look is very s*xy, but anyway....)

ora_43

Tue, Aug 19 2014, 4:25 am

Lady Godiva wrote:

I disagree. Ignoring the "hot chani" issue for a moment - we all have an obligation of chinuch, toward everyone. There's the whole concept of maarit ayin, that is, not even appearing to do something wrong, even in front of fellow adults. All the more so there's an issue with doing something wrong and claiming it's fine.

It's easy to say each person should just choose to not be affected by others' behavior, but a quick glance at reality shows that's not how the world works. People are way, way more likely to do what "everyone" is doing than to go against it.

It's not at all reasonable to expect that people won't be influenced by anyone but their own parents.

Again, not talking specifically about a style of dress, just generally on the concept of chinuch and community.

Lady Godiva

Tue, Aug 19 2014, 9:30 am

ora_43 wrote:

So do you think that people should live their lives geared toward every other Jew's derech, lest they make it more challenging for another parent to parent their child in their own way?
I think that's ridiculous and impossible to do, too.
In a perfect world, all my friends and neighbors would be shining examples of the adults I want my children to turn out to be. But it's not a perfect world, and it's my job to teach my children to do what I feel is the right thing to do. It's not another Jew's responsibility to change their lifestyle for my sake.

Also, let's not forget that to each person one mitzvah may come easier and another may be more challenging. So expecting another person to change themselves and push themselves perhaps beyond their current abilities in a specific mitzvah may just backfire and cause that person to lose their love and comfort in Judaism. That would be counter productive. You may have an easier time teaching your child your ways, but the person in question may have a more challenging experience remaining observant.

Growth and stability in Judaism is a very personal thing. And please remember that though there's the issue of marit ayin, there's also the issue of dan lekaf zechut.

debsey

Tue, Aug 19 2014, 12:36 pm

Tablepoetry wrote:

First of all, you are taking this out of context - one woman posted that she feels most comfortable dressing this way - and I was commenting on that - what type of comfort are we talking about? We can disingenuously claim that 6 inch heels are comfortable, but anyone who has worn them ONCE knows it's not true.
So we have established that it's not PHYSICAL comfort. OK. So what else is there? PSYCHOLOGICAL comfort? Well, guess what - I also like to look good! I also like to dress for the situation, and I have plenty of times I suffer for beauty or for being appropriate for the situation (business suits aren't so comfortable, but in one particular professional context I work in, that's what's appropriate, so I wear them).
You do realize that you are making the same point that I am. I also said that women like to look good and that this is totally appropriate. What I consider "sad" is that some women are deluded into confusing looking s*xy with looking good.
This isn't a Jewish issue necessarily. I come from a more feminist perspective to say that it is sad when a woman feels that in order to look good she has to exude s*xuality. You can look classy, professional, beautiful, pretty, elegant, stylish - and if it makes you feel good and is appropriate to the situation - great! But to exude s*xy - that's sad that you have been duped into thinking this looks "good."
From the Jewish perspective, I simply said that it is disingenuous and adolescent to say "but I am tznius, look, my elbows are covered......" Don't bother. Wear slacks.
debsey

marina

Tue, Aug 19 2014, 12:38 pm

Quote:

Why would you not handle this situation as you do any other parenting difference? Like say bedtimes. Children, yes some families let their preschoolers go to bed at midnight, but we have a 7:30 bedtime. Children, yes some ladies wear tighter clothes or pants or don't cover their hair, but that's not for us.

No offense meant.

marina

Tue, Aug 19 2014, 12:43 pm

ora_43 wrote:

Say the above is true. As a parent you are still going to teach your children your values and you will, certainly, insist that they not follow the majority like little sheep, right? Say everyone is bullying a child. You will teach your kids that it doesn't matter what everyone is doing - your child will do something else. And you won't necessarily be mechanech the other kids or their families.

Or even something simpler- some parents buy their child a brand new million dollar car for their 16th birthday, but that's not what you'll be doing and you'll expect your child to understand. I don't see the difference btw this and tznius.

debsey

Tue, Aug 19 2014, 12:45 pm

marina wrote:

Quote:

I agree with Marina on this one. When my daughter sees someone who is frum but playing this game, we talk frankly about it. In fact, we were discussing this yesterday (we had an appointment in Manhattan and we were walking on Madison Avenue) we played a game - spot the classy women. None of them were close to tznius - but there's a certain classy look that you can respect, and I used it as a springboard for a talk on what message we want to convey when we dress. My daughter (being adolescent) had a lot of interesting thoughts on the subject.

Barbara

Tue, Aug 19 2014, 12:51 pm

ElTam wrote:

SNIP

My issue is this: I have two daughters that I am trying to raise in the proper derech. And it is very confusing for them to see women they know are frum wearing dresses that are so tight you can count their ribs, skirts that are so tight you can read what brand underpants they are wearing, and four inch heels stiletto heels. I don't want to speak lashon hara about these women but I also need my daughters to understand what is tznius and what is not tznius. To me, dressing like this is putting a stumbling block before a fellow Jew. By all means, look beautiful. Look fashionable. Look put-together and hip. But I would hope people would think twice before wearing things that are clearly outside the bounds of tznius.

I'm not Hot Chani. More like a Blimpy Betty, or Overweight Ora.

But I dress the way I deem appropriate. I've no desire to be a role model for your daughters. That's your job.

Simple1

Tue, Aug 19 2014, 12:57 pm

I wasn't planning to post because it's not for me to comment on how others dress and I don't really care.

But regarding the chinuch debate, I have to somewhat agree with Eitam. Yes, it's a parents job to set the chinuch standards, and in an ideal world, this will work. But on a practical level, as the kids grow into teens, they also become more independent and become strongly influenced by their surroundings. In some cases, parents are forced to choose their battles, and compromise and let them dress in ways they don't love. Anyway, it makes sense to say that yes, it makes our lives harder. But you're right, we are the parents and will have to deal.

PinkFridge

Tue, Aug 19 2014, 2:54 pm

Lady Godiva wrote:

Maybe the first time you put them on. I can't remember it's been almost 2 decades! Oy.
After wearing them for a while, you don't even think about them or feel them.

Maybe you should change them? LOL

And to all those who say that parents should be the role models, etc. So true. BUT if you and your school are teaching certain standards, and women from the same world and system aren't toeing the line, it is corrosive to a person's resolve, especially an impressionable teen. I'm not going to blame these women for making my job as parent harder, just sad that it can add to a kid's cynicism with the system.

Last edited by PinkFridge on Tue, Aug 19 2014, 2:57 pm; edited 1 time in total