Home
Log in / Sign Up
    Private Messages   Advanced Search   Rules   New User Guide   FAQ   Advertise   Contact Us  
Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Rosh Hashana-Yom Kippur
Does your shul have babysitting for the yomim noraim?
Previous  1  2  3



Post new topic   Reply to topic View latest: 24h 48h 72h

freidasima




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 21 2014, 3:08 pm
Sang - put on your reading glasses. I never stated or intimated that I am representative of all MO women or any groups of MO women, I keep writing "in my world", do you miss that sentence each time? My world is PART of the MO world, certainly not all of it. There are lots of variations in both the MO and the DL worlds, no one anywhere is claiming that they are THE representative with a capital T. So stop adding your own peirush, to what I am writing and exaggerating, it's getting more than annoying.

What does Ramat Gan have to do with anything? Shabbat mentioned the hesder yeshiva in Ramat Gan that her brother studies in, and the fact that they have a long davening, I mentioned that it is even longer than she described, simply because my boys have been there for weeks as part of their yeshiva studies (you have boys so you must know that in the last year of yeshiva tichonit the boys go from yeshiva to yeshiva and spend weeks there at a time sometimes) and we have heard all about it. Indeed it is a special yeshiva because of its direction, a very heavy emphasis on the mystical and chassidus, a lovely special yeshiva with extremely long davening because of that (I gather you are not familiar with chassidish davening on yuntif or with the uniqueness of Yeshivat Ramat Gan in spite of your claiming that you know so much about DL EY, or you would have caught on immediately to what I meant).

You can see that other posters have backed me up here. There are MO/DL circles in both EY and abroad where the average religious woman does not necessarily go to shul on shabbos, there are MO/DL cirlces in both EY and abroad where women do not prostrate themselves etc. Time for you to widen your circles my dear before you pass judgement next time I describe you are not personally familiar with and immediately jump on me saying it is so "strange".

Some women go to shul, others don't. In "your world" they do, in "my world" they don't. We are both MO, but we move in different circles obviously. Etky wrote it as it is "I go to shul primarily because of an emotional need to do so", she writes...and that works for her. For me and for the women in "my world" we DONT go to shul as not only don't we have an emotional need to do so, we much prefer staying home, sleeping late, davening at home, having one leisurely morning as we work the other five or six and on Friday we get up early to make shabbos and do all the other things that women working many hours a week can't on a weekday. On shabbos morning we bless our lucky starts that we are Potur from minyan and enjoy, taking care of the children or grandkids, getting the food ready for kiddush and being home. Kriyas Hatorah is not "uplifting", we don't like drashot, and we haven't heard Lecho Dodi in shul since we were single some 40 years ago and don't miss it either...it's like living on lettuce that some women speak of. You do it when you are single to be slim enough to catch the eye of a guy who likes a slim figure. One you are married, BH, you won't have to eat lettuce, or go to shul...BH. BH. BH. My "spiritual plane" that Etki talks about, and that of my neighbors and friends, is to spend the hour that our husbands are at shul on friday nite with the kids, and if we actually have a shabbos alone, to curl up with the paper or a magazine and read and relax. That's our "transition" and mentally unwinding. That's what we saw our mother's do (kids or relax) and that's what we saw our grandmother's do and it worked fine for them and it works fine for us too.
Back to top

shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 21 2014, 3:19 pm
freidasima wrote:
Shabbat. Of course I don't go on shabbos but we live right near the shul and see everyone coming back and of course sometimes if there is a shiur right after shul my husband gives it and he knows when the second minyan is over so he knows when to come back...and dh has been to the second minyan more than once bichlalal if there was some reason etc. so he tells me exactly how long the davening is, what takes so long etc. Are you trying to say that he is lying to me? That all the people we see passing in front of the building coming back from shul at noon are actually coming back from a secret party after shul? Maybe a clandestine movie? C'mon get real.

There are lots of shuls that go so long, you may not know them personally but there are now davenings that daven very long, have a drush in the middle, sometimes a small kiddush/lechayim after kriyas hatorah for those who can't go so long (after all if they don't eat a mezonos and only have water or coffee before davening it's a long time to go, especially in the summer heat).

You know? Just because you haven't seen or heard something doesn't mean it doesn't exist! And just BTW Yeshivat Ramat Gan goes even longer, as do some of the davenings here in Yerushalayim with a lot of singing...try explaining to someone why a friday nite service at Yakar can take two and a half hours when in another shul it is 65 to 70 minutes tops...that's more than TWICE AS LONG! And yes, it exists....
FS you always tell us that you are shtark MO, never forget that you are shtark. But to not go to shul? To me that is very unshtark.

Ah, yakar. When I was single I lived in that neighborhood. I went there almost every friday night. That was carlebachan, so of course it takes longer.

And you wrote asking if I think your husband is lying to you? No, I think you are either stretching some truths or something.

Your posts just dont make sense (and I am not the only one who feels that way)
Back to top

freidasima




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 21 2014, 4:03 pm
Shabbat only you and Sang are arguing that you nhever heard of what I am talking about. Table backs me up, Ruchel backs me up, others have written that they are also familiar with women not going to shul except on yuntif and also not prostrating themselves. What's your problem to admit you may not know people like me but that we exist and in droves?

Do you think that Yakar is the only shul that davens Carleback style meaning lots of singing and chazunes and long? You must be kidding, open your eyes.

As for Shtark you obviously don't know what it means, Shtark is gendered and as I have written before we are very gendered, unlike what you are used to, and in the shtark gendered world men go to shul all the time and women - women go on yuntif. What is so difficult for you to understand?

You also odn't seem to undestand a sense of irony when I asked you very much tongue in cheek whether I should think my husband is lying to me. Are you nuts? You don't get a joke? You obviously also are willing to say YHakar is a long davening but not willing to extend it to the fact that other shuls are also long...so be it. Maybe one day you will leave your little environment and see that there are lots of variations in the MO/DL world and what I am describing is one of those variations within that broad world.
Back to top

shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 21 2014, 4:06 pm
freidasima wrote:
Shabbat only you and Sang are arguing that you nhever heard of what I am talking about. Table backs me up, Ruchel backs me up, others have written that they are also familiar with women not going to shul except on yuntif and also not prostrating themselves. What's your problem to admit you may not know people like me but that we exist and in droves?

Do you think that Yakar is the only shul that davens Carleback style meaning lots of singing and chazunes and long? You must be kidding, open your eyes.

As for Shtark you obviously don't know what it means, Shtark is gendered and as I have written before we are very gendered, unlike what you are used to, and in the shtark gendered world men go to shul all the time and women - women go on yuntif. What is so difficult for you to understand?

You also odn't seem to undestand a sense of irony when I asked you very much tongue in cheek whether I should think my husband is lying to me. Are you nuts? You don't get a joke? You obviously also are willing to say YHakar is a long davening but not willing to extend it to the fact that other shuls are also long...so be it. Maybe one day you will leave your little environment and see that there are lots of variations in the MO/DL world and what I am describing is one of those variations within that broad world.
I have many times.

I think its the way you write FS. You always write "my world" as in nobody on this board is like you, cant be like you. There is an irony like that too....
Back to top

ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 21 2014, 4:28 pm
I can't say I've seen much of a difference between "shtark MO," dati leumi, dati leumi lite, charedi leumi, regular MO, left-wing MO, etc (got my bases covered? LOL ) on this. In every group there are some women who feel that going to shul helps their avodat Hashem, and some who don't.

Maybe in certain MO shuls women are as likely to go as men, but I think that's because those shuls cater more to women, so women who are interested in going to shul davka go there (usually, the family goes there). IOW, it's not that in those kehilot women all go to shul, it's that women who all go to shul prefer that particular shul. If that makes sense.
Back to top

etky




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 21 2014, 4:43 pm
I actually think that there is a real difference between a yishuv and a city in this respect.
I think that in a yishuv women are more likely to go to shul because 'that is what you do' - not in the sense of peer pressure or any type of censure if you fail to come - but rather because it's part of the routine, (the 'shtance' for those who know what that means), the rhythm of yishuv life. The entire neighborhood is at the neighborhood shul so you are bound to show up at some point too. I do know women who don't come on a regular basis but they are definitely the glaring exception. So it's a social, community thing too.
Back to top

Sanguine




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 21 2014, 4:46 pm
etky wrote:
I actually think that there is a real difference between a yishuv and a city in this respect.
I think that in a yishuv women are more likely to go to shul because 'that is what you do' - not in the sense of peer pressure or any type of censure if you fail to come - but rather because it's part of the routine, (the 'shtance' for those who know what that means), the rhythm of yishuv life. The entire neighborhood is at the neighborhood shul so you are bound to show up at some point too. I do know women who don't come on a regular basis but they are definitely the glaring exception. So it's a social, community thing too.
I've seen it in Ranana too. Places with a "community"
Back to top

ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 21 2014, 4:49 pm
etky wrote:
I actually think that there is a real difference between a yishuv and a city in this respect.
I think that in a yishuv women are more likely to go to shul because 'that is what you do' - not in the sense of peer pressure or any type of censure if you fail to come - but rather because it's part of the routine, (the 'shtance' for those who know what that means), the rhythm of yishuv life. The entire neighborhood is at the neighborhood shul so you are bound to show up at some point too. I do know women who don't come on a regular basis but they are definitely the glaring exception. So it's a social, community thing too.

Good point.
Back to top

etky




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 21 2014, 5:03 pm
Sanguine wrote:
I've seen it in Ranana too. Places with a "community"


Yes - also the shul I belonged to in Jerusalem when I was growing up. It was a real (heavily Anglo) community and people came to see each other as much as to daven.
Back to top

Sanguine




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 21 2014, 5:14 pm
etky wrote:
Yes - also the shul I belonged to in Jerusalem when I was growing up. It was a real (heavily Anglo) community and people came to see each other as much as to daven.
It's not just the socializing and catching up on the neighborhood gossip but it's that it becomes "your" shul. I've purposely forgotten the tunes that I grew up with. I've been here long enough that these are now "my" tunes. I enjoy davening in my shul cause it's mine. I know the tunes. I know the chazzan. It's different than when you're a guest in a different neighborhood. Even in big cities your shul becomes part of you. It's important for Olim to close off their childhood shul and connect to one here. Otherwise they won't want to go to shul.
Back to top

mille




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 21 2014, 5:27 pm
To answer the original question, yes! Our shul has groups and babysitting. Actually both our home shul and my in-laws shul (where we actually go for RH/YK).

The women's section in our shul is totally packed on RH/YK. So women clearly go! Prostrating depends on the person, it's not the majority but it's not uncommon (and I don't really know because I'm not really looking at what others are doing!). Shul is from like 9am til 1pm on RH. We do sing a lot, and I like it. I also go to shul on Shabbat every week (unless I'm sick or the weather is really bad!).

Did that cover everything? LOL
Back to top

shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 22 2014, 12:34 am
etky wrote:
I actually think that there is a real difference between a yishuv and a city in this respect.
I think that in a yishuv women are more likely to go to shul because 'that is what you do' - not in the sense of peer pressure or any type of censure if you fail to come - but rather because it's part of the routine, (the 'shtance' for those who know what that means), the rhythm of yishuv life. The entire neighborhood is at the neighborhood shul so you are bound to show up at some point too. I do know women who don't come on a regular basis but they are definitely the glaring exception. So it's a social, community thing too.
I dont know. Ive been to quite a few different shuls and communities in Israel. I have been to many cities for shabbatot, while single and when we were looking for a comunity to live in.
I always saw women at shul, not just in yishuvim. In cities as well.
Back to top

freidasima




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 22 2014, 7:35 am
Shabbat you are adding peirush Rashi that wasn't written, wasn't intended and is coming solely from YOU. When I write "my world" all I mean is among women who live in my kind of circles. It's just an expression that people use. It isn't "all inclusive" regarding the larger group to which people belong, and maybe you aren't familiar with using that expression to mean "my particular social group" but that's what it means.

Maybe it's British? I regularly read a Scottish magazine called "The People's Friend" in which there is a serial called "Shona's World" about a minister's wife in a town called Nechtan and her experiences in her social circle. It's not about all women in Scotland, not about all minister's wives, but about Shona, her friends and family, and people like them.

Please try not to bring your own biases or premeditations into prosaic usage of terms and then you won't end up blaming people for things that they didn't do or mean.
Back to top

freidasima




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 22 2014, 7:44 am
Table said it correctly earlier. She was the one who said that she is familar with what I am writing, only it is among Israelis, DL shuls in cities. That fits in well with what Etki once again wrote so well, and as someone who is familar with lifestyle in both hityashvut kafrit (yishuvim, moshavim, kibbutzim, hitnachaluyot, small settlements of any kind), hityashvut ironit (city dwelling, ranging from very Israeli mid city shuls to communal private ones, anglo, mizrahi and your average non communal ashkenazi shuls, that pretty much explains it.

Shuls that are mid city, very Israeli and your average dati kind aren't "communal" and just because a bunch of religious people live together in walking distance from the shul doesn't make it a "community" as we knew it abroad. There is no sisterhood, there is no men's club, the shul is paid for and run by the municipality and not a local board, and while as those davening there (note, I don't say "members" because there is no official "membership) get older, sicker and have a lot more time on their hands, they may develop a bikur cholim committee, when they were younger there was no equivalent of a "food for new mothers" or social groups around that shul or that "community".

Turning the shul into a community center is a very anglo thing, or a very small town, small yishuv thing. In the city your average Israeli has his or her friends which form their virtual community. People no longer live next to their friends all the time. Going to shul is not a social event. It's a davening event. The women aren't necessarily friends with each other and there is little more than "shalom-shalom" said unless you have groups of friends who may go to shul together. You may have your few friends or neighbors, but your neighbors aren't necessarily your friends either and to see them you don't need to go to shul.
Back to top

freidasima




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 22 2014, 8:00 am
Shabbat, you write that you always saw women in shuls...well that's just the thing, you probably weren't going to the shuls where women don't go, the early minyans etc. And the fact that you saw women in shul always...what about all the women you didn't see because they DIDNT go to shul? What about them? You have no idea how many frum women lived in the environs of the shul and how many didn't go.

What's even more interesting is why you, Sang, and a few of the other women here are trying so hard to prove that almost every modern religious or dati leumi woman goes to shul every shabbos when there are those of us here both in EY and abroad saying that we don't and that in our shul women don't.

Why is it so important to you to prove this? Why is it so important to you and Sang and a few others that women should go to shul? Particularly if those women are happy not to, and possibly much happier not to than if they would go? It's already been written that it's a social thing and an expected thing, possibly sometimes even "chore" for women in certain communities to go, I find it interesting that some of you have difficulties wrapping your emotions around the fact that there are women who don't go on a regular basis, who are perfectly happy not going on a regular basis, for whom shul is not their social life and if they daven, they prefer doing it privately, at home, on their own time, when it works for them and in a more comfortable environment. Women who feel connected to Hashem and their Avodas Hashem in ways other than hearing chazoras hashatz, hearing keriyas hatorah (although they can always read the sedra on their own at home and many do), or other things for which they have no chiyuv halochically nor any desire to do.

Why do any of you care so much about what other religious women choose to do?
Back to top

Tablepoetry




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 22 2014, 8:47 am
I second FS. Most women I know aren't going to shul on shabbat. Regular DL women, from the more liberal to those who cover their hair/3/4 sleeves. They just don't go.
There probably are a few women in synagogue, but they are the exception here.
I think it does make a difference that I live in a regular israeli city. They are trying to build a 'kehilla' here, but it hasnt yet affected women's shul attendance.
Back to top

dancingqueen




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 22 2014, 11:19 am
I agree with Shabbat, that ime the shtark mo (very Torah learned) women I know in both America and Israel are avid shul goers as much as possible.

I am definitely a different generation than fs though.
Back to top

freidasima




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 22 2014, 1:37 pm
Dancing, "Shtark" at least in the way my friends, family and I use it, does not mean very Torah learned, but something totally different.

Literally it means "strong"and when used in connection with the term Modern Orthodox it is someone who is uncompromising (traditional or "old fashioned") when it comes to the "Orthodox" part but also uncompromising when it comes to the "Modern" part.

So being Shtark-orthodox is someone who is uncompromising (according to what she was taught or her rabbinical authorities hold) when it comes to the religious aspects of life such as tznius, hilchos shabbos, kashrus, at times in a very different way than their MO or DL surroundings, but also someone who is quite uncompromising when it comes to modernity or modern issues. They are fully into modern literature, modern pasttimes such a movies, theatre, etc. Someone who is Shtark MO can definitely BE very Torah learned, but it's not a requirement, there are Shtark MO women I know who don't have great torah knowledge but are very strict in following what they learned as the din from their rabbinical authorities.

The "kuntz" in understanding Shtark MO is understanding what "old fashioned" means. In many cases it is what many could see as rather gendered behavior, such as in this case - shul during the year is mostly for men as women don't have a chiyuv to go. Old fashioned is sometimes in dress and in manners (which were always gendered actually, men hold doors for women but women are also in charge of the house, raising the kids, men are in charge of education etc.). It's not absolute but it's a general way of life...

Anyhow in short "shtark" has nothing to do with the amount of torah learning one has.
Back to top
Page 3 of 3 Previous  1  2  3 Recent Topics




Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Rosh Hashana-Yom Kippur

Related Topics Replies Last Post
How far from shul would you buy a house?
by amother
31 Sun, Apr 28 2024, 4:33 pm View last post
Pulling out of babysitting group
by amother
5 Tue, Apr 16 2024, 9:54 pm View last post
Needing guests at Chasunah at Shul in Lawrence in May 7 Wed, Apr 10 2024, 7:41 am View last post
Looking for used shul furniture
by amother
0 Sun, Apr 07 2024, 10:42 pm View last post
White Shul pre yuntif boutique
by amother
0 Wed, Apr 03 2024, 10:08 pm View last post