I was at a secular bat mitzvah- felt kind of sad

mummiedearest

Tue, Sep 30 2014, 8:05 pm

zaq wrote:

Hon, why are you picking on secular folks? Check out the imamother archives--many years ago there was a thread in which women unabashedly stated that they put mascara and other makeup on their infant BOYS for picture-taking purposes. Explain that, Sherlock.

I'll explain it. they did it because they knew the boys wouldn't agree to it once older. duh.

ValleyMom

Tue, Sep 30 2014, 8:23 pm

I went to a Chassidishe wedding in Miami and I was horrified because from across the room the women looked like they were wearing sleeveless gowns with plunging necklines. As I wandered around the smorgasbord I realized they were actually wearing nude colored long sleeved shells under the low-cut sleeveless dresses.

So- they looked slutty but in reality they were indeed covered up.

Someone please explain this....

Hashem_Yaazor

Tue, Sep 30 2014, 8:46 pm

I see very little difference between OP's scenario and the one with the bas mitzvah girl dressed al pi halacha in a gown. For some reason, the second was excused as the one day she is able to dress up.

Well, that's exactly why the girls were dressed up like that in OP's case! The difference is they have no chinuch in tznius, so the way they dress up like an adult is by copying what the adult women in their circles do.
The way the gown girl dressed up was the way adults dress up at a simcha where they are a close relative.

It's just doing what the adults do, and since that differs in each circle, the bas mitzvah girl will look different.

And lest you think it's a dress up problem only, there was a HuffPost blog entry against Target marketing their girls' clothing ridiculously short....for everyday wear. It IS a problem in society. But maybe the answer is not to "let girls be girls" and stop having their clothing look like adults. Maybe the answer is to change the way adults dress, and that will filter into the way the girls will want to dress too....

imasinger

Tue, Sep 30 2014, 8:53 pm

The clothing is the least of it.

The worst would cause even the die hard non critics here to react.

In the secular world these days, many 13 year olds have already been, if not fully active, then doing plenty. There have been true reports about incidents on buses carrying kids from synagogue to party locale.

And that's not even getting into the underage drinking that happens.

I don't necessarily blame the kids or their parents. There is a lot of pressure on public school teens, and it is starting younger and younger.

Barbara

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 1:01 am

imasinger wrote:

Fortunately, that's not true. Something like 2% of girls and 3% of boys are seckzually active at age 13. the average age of first intercourse in the US is 17. All according to a report released in May 2014.

In fact, the age of first intercourse has been going UP in the US.

Gotta love urban myths.

DrMom

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 2:16 am

imasinger wrote:

I find this very troubling. Are you sure this is true?

I just want to add that I am a BT who went to public school, and didn't experience anything like this at bar/bat-mitvah parties, ever.

I recall most 12/13-year-olds as awkward and still very child-like. Sx and drinking at a bat mitzvah? Not in my world.
Bat mitzvah parties were afternoon or evening events, with lunch/dinner and a DJ, held in a shul social hall or restaurant. Nobody would serve underage kids alcohol at a place like this. Plus, these were family events, not just kids' events. Speeches, kisses from the proud grandparents, etc.

But maybe I'm just old.

DrMom

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 2:19 am

ValleyMom wrote:

I agree that is jarring.

[OTOH, how is covering skin with skin-colored clothing any different from covering hair with a wig?

At least the shells weren't made from human skin.]

imasinger

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 5:49 am

Barbara wrote:

No, Barbara, these are not myths. I wish they were.

The studies you quote are measuring percentages of kids who are "sxually active", defined as having had ntercourse within the past 3 months. But that's not what these 12-14 year old kids are doing. Touching and oral sx don't get included in those numbers.

Take a look at the numbers for 12 and 13 year olds in the US who report having been in a "romantic relationship."

Depending on which source you find, it's between 33 and 70%.

Now, add in the reports that kids often are engaging in these behaviors casually, aping their elders and calling them "hookups", or "friends with benefits."

I believe that a reasonable estimate for white Jewish 12-14 year olds engaging in these behaviors is around 25-33%.

And those that aren't yet actually doing this may not wait more than another year or so, and certainly are hearing about it.

Something happening in an unsupervised corner of a large Bar Mitzvah or a bus is not unheard of. If you know any parents who are inclined to be naive, encourage them to provide adequate chaperoning.

Before becoming BT 15 years ago, I was very involved with teaching and preparing kids for Bar/Bat Mitzvah, and I still have many friends around the country who are in the field.

Dr Mom, this behavior is a change from our day, and it is not universal. But it exists. Just like kids in most high schools know where to find drugs. They may not all be using them, but the fact and temptation is a part of their lives.

mommy3b2c

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 7:38 am

amother wrote:

Well, over rosh hashana I was at a MO minyan where the girls, from little to older teens were all, without exception, wearing tzanua clothes, not tight, not revealing, not garishly colored, low heels and all were so aidel in behavior and dress I was delighted. There were some skirts that just hit the knee, but there were also some mothers tutting at their own daughters and reminding them to pull the skirt down. They all davened so beautifully, helped lay out and tidy up the kiddush without being asked, and generally made a real positive impression.

Then I went to a more charedi shul to meet family, and the teen girls were not dressed as modestly, mostly hitting appropriate skirt length but way too tight, glittery or ostentatious clothing and did not have the same behavior modeled by the first shul. Their mothers wore double head coverings, the daughters, teen and young married, were not as careful in their look, teetering on high heels, skin tight dresses and sheitals down to their behind, or hair the same.

I know which I found more tzanua in letter and spirit of the law.

Off topic, but I find it hard to believe that all the mothers wore double head coverings and all the young ones wore spike heels and long sheitels. That would mean, that the whole entire young group became like ten times more modern then their parents. Doesnt make sense.

Also, why are you comparing mo to chareidi? Both of those groups usually follow hilchos tznius. The op was talking about secular y.oung girls.

mommy3b2c

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 7:41 am

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

The difference is that being dressed in a gown does not mean you were dressed like an adult. Since when are gowns only for adults?

DrMom

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 7:49 am

mommy2b2c wrote:

I didn't think "modern" = spike heels + long sheitels.

"Provocative" perhaps, or "sxualized." But "modern"??

Ruchel

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 9:54 am

All cultural. Normal random non J kids in my world don't go around having s-x, and certainly not in buses/public, at 12 or 13... As for traditional to shomer mitsvos + Jews, they generally are even more sheltered. Look up stats where you are, and use your mind to envision which kind of group is higher or chas veshalom lower.

Now, from what I see on Imamother, in other places one can be very frum and still very Hollywoody and into all their vices or their kosher version ("kosher adultery"? please). Go know. I can only talk about the kids I meet and hear about, as teacher or wtv. Guess I would feel more at peace of mine with some non Jewish friends than some frum "cool" friends for my kids in some locations?

Hashem_Yaazor

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 10:04 am

mommy2b2c wrote:

The difference is that being dressed in a gown does not mean you were dressed like an adult. Since when are gowns only for adults?

I meant it to include the whole updo and makeup as in the scenario presented -- there is a look with the gown that is usually for adults, but either way, it doesn't really matter....girls dress up in gowns, yes, to be like adults, at chassunos too (not just their bas mitzvah), and I'd venture to guess bas mitzvah girl in OP would dress like an adult in her non-appropriate outfit if she was at a wedding...

mommy3b2c

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 10:51 am

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

I have to say I disagree. Not talking about this particular girl in the gown, because I don't know what she looked like, and wearing a gown to a bat mitzvah is a little over the top in my opinion, but not because she is trying to look like an adult. Gowns are made for two year olds and ninety two year olds. SO are updos. They are a way to dress extra fancy to a close family members simcha and it has nothing to do with age. Even make up, while not appropriate on a normal basis for an 11 or 12 year old is definitely appropriate for a siblings wedding.

DrMom

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 10:52 am

mommy2b2c wrote:

I disagree.

Hashem_Yaazor

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 11:04 am

It doesn't matter if we agree or disagree, really, but why do you think little girls are wearing updos and makeup to simchas? I would venture to guess it is because we consider beautifying measures with what adults do. The actual details how are irrelevant, which is what my first post was about. A secular girl wearing a strapless mini dress and heels, for example, is just doing what is culturally appropriate for her -- it's the same as the adults wear in her circles, so that's how she sees it as beautiful. There is no more or less of a reason that should not be 12 year old attire than a full face of makeup. It's all about what you're used to that normalizes it.

mommy3b2c

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 11:10 am

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

The main difference I can think of right now is high heels. There is no way to make high heels for a little girl, there is no one that thinks that's normal. Gowns can be designed for two year olds. Mini skirts are different, because mini skirts CAN be designed for all ages.