This American Life episode about Hasidic takeover of Ramapo

anon for this

Sun, Nov 02 2014, 9:55 am

Squishy wrote:

The Jewish politicians serve on the school board to control the costs. They are not activists as they are not looking for social change but fiscal responsibility.

Getting rid of the illegal aliens by enforcing zoning would have the effect of reducing costs for education but would increase costs of enforcement.

The inspectors need to have information as to who is actually living in overcrowded conditions. Someone must inform. They can't just knock at the door and demand inspections. Perhaps they can offer rewards but that is expensive. Who is going to say that the people rooming together are not family when they claim they are? They have no papers.

Also, if they clear out one house, they will just go elsewhere nearby. They too want to stay near their friends, family and country men. The only solution would be to detain them for breaking the law in the first place. Detaining illegals costs more than 2 billion a year.

They are here to stay. The federal government should pay to educate them not the local government.

Doesn't Ramapo County have laws that restrict the number of people who can live in a residence? In most towns the laws allow only a limited number of people to live in a house, even if they are all related. The limit often depends on the size of the house and the number of bedrooms.

Enforcing zoning laws is primarily about ensuring safety and quality of life, but it also controls costs--not just schooling costs but also emergency services and sewer costs.

Would housing inspectors be violating the law if they cross-checked certificates of occupancy with the number of people actually living at a home? Wouldn't this be allowed in the interest of public safety? It would be even simpler to check how many families are registered for public school at a single address. If the number is greater than the number of families allowed at that address, then housing inspectors would have grounds for visiting the home. Removing 5 children from the public school system would defray the salary of a single inspector. And it might save someone's life too.

Some school districts in NJ have a problem of parents lying about their address so they can register their children in districts they consider better, or children who are living in illegal apartments. One district conducted a re-registration process to find these students. The process cost a few thousand dollars and removed dozens of illegal students. Districts have even hired inspectors to investigate specific cases and paid bounties to people who report illegal students.

The fact that the frum politicians haven't pushed for this makes me think that they're concerned about what these inspections would show about their frum constituents. And that makes them look hypocritical when they complain about illegal residents not paying their fair share of property taxes.

33055

Sun, Nov 02 2014, 10:08 am

Clarissa wrote:

I also think those who make decisions about the military should be people who’ve served in the armed forces. You can’t know the reality and risks without having been involved.

Decimating the school system does nothing for the local people. My father, even though his children were grown, railed against the local school board being frum Jews without kids in the local schools. He didn’t want to see his local schools ruined because of budget cuts voted on by locals who didn’t have kids in the schools. It doesn’t help the area at all to have more dropouts or children who are getting lousy educations in awful conditions.

The public school children are currently receiving a finer education in better physical plants than the private students receive in East Ramapo. The problem is the great influx of illegal aliens coupled with the removal of the Jews from the system. The problem is social rather than inept or incompetent teachers. The teachers are professional and the continued staff training is also professional. I wish my children had as fine educated educators for their secular studies.

The programs that were cut are not germane to their education. Sure it would be nice to offer them, but currently mandated programs that don't work like ESL eat up too much of the budget. It would also be nice to offer even a fraction of the arts that are now available to the public school students to the private school students. There are free after school and summer programs available for public school students. Frum students have to pay for these services.

33055

Sun, Nov 02 2014, 10:22 am

anon for this wrote:

The ordinances say 4 or 5 unrelated people. Cousins and their families can live together. Who is to say the illegal aliens are not cousins? The problems you are thinking about occur in high rises. Homes have plenty of egress.

The towns only enforce this when there is a problem. They can check sewer use, but they can't prove how many unrelated people live in a home.

Property tax is based on the property itself not the number of residents. Frum families also have many residents per domicile. There isn't proper planning here either for the overburdening of the infrastructure.

Clarissa

Sun, Nov 02 2014, 10:29 am

Squishy wrote:

Property prices are skyrocketing as this is a desirable area to live in. In this case you have two big populations that want to live here.

The quality of the school district is only one aspect of property prices.

I don’t know. It used to be a beautiful area (I went out with someone for years who lived up there) with lots of artists, writers and successful people from all fields. Great restaurants and cafes and interesting cultural events. Now it doesn’t look or seem like the same place. But I guess to each his or her own.

Allowing a renegade school board with special interests to damage the public school opportunities will always inevitably bite the locals in the a**. But like I said, I don’t live there and I’m not losing sleep over it.

anon for this

Sun, Nov 02 2014, 10:32 am

Clarissa wrote:

Obviously that’s not the case with the Senate Armed Services Committee, but there’s public oversight of that particular organization, as everything they do is public. Very different situation when a school board with a bunch of people with special interests gets to vote and do whatever they want.

I do think school board business should be public.

Regarding the Senate (or House) Armed Services Committee, I sort of like the idea of membership being open only to people who've served in the military or reserves. Except that would disqualify most of the women on both committees, except I think for Tammy Duckworth.

I don't believe all Committee business is open to the public. Some of it definitely should be secret for national security reasons.

anon for this

Sun, Nov 02 2014, 10:41 am

Squishy wrote:

Are you saying that city ordinances do not restrict the number of people who can live in a home, as long as they are all related in some way? That sounds quite dangerous. I agree that overcrowding creates a greater fire hazard in a high-rise apartment, but it can be dangerous in any overcrowded home, especially one with more than one level.

PinkFridge

Sun, Nov 02 2014, 10:46 am

I live out of town and maybe have a galus mentality so I get nervous when I see too many frum Jews serving on any one such board. But between the Tablet article and a recent Mishpacha article, while there are a number of concerns like the zoning issues brought up here the chillul Hashem is not what I'd feared and there are people who are trying to do their best for all children. A strong public school system means a community that's attracting concerned and good parents. (Again, living OOT, even while we have some very concentrated blocks, we won't be the majority of the students in any one district.)

Tzippora

Sun, Nov 02 2014, 10:47 am

Well, Clarissa, let's look at what happens when you gut the school district in the way they've been doing. Jews will keep wanting to move in for our own reasons since we don't use the public schools. Non- Jews or secular Jews (who were once a major constituency in the area) who can afford to, though, will move to better school districts if they have school aged children. Which will create concentrations of people who are truly impoverished, but will free up middle class housing for Jews who want to move in. And so you end up with an almost all-Jewish district, which I guess wouldn't be a problem for these folks at all.

DrMom

Sun, Nov 02 2014, 11:04 am

Squishy wrote:

I had read a bit about the Ramapo situation in the article linked below, and it sounded like the cuts that were made were extremely drastic.

Quote:

Last year, the kindergarten school day was reduced by half. AP classes and ESL programs fell by the wayside. In the high schools, so many teachers have been laid off that students can’t fill their schedules: Some have five lunch periods and study halls in an eight-period day. This year, the district floated a proposal to eliminate kindergarten altogether and shorten the school day for everyone else. Jean Fields, the principal of Ramapo High School, told me that if that measure were adopted, not a single student would qualify for the Advanced Regent’s Diploma, considered essential for getting into competitive colleges. Almost half of her 1,400 students would no longer be able to graduate in four years, because they simply will not be able to amass enough credits in time.

Luckily these proposed measures were defeated and less draconian (but still drastic) measures were put into place.
http://nymag.com/news/features......html
I don't live in Ramapo, so can someone tell me if this article is accurate?

33055

Sun, Nov 02 2014, 11:13 am

anon for this wrote:

It is not dangerous. If they limited how many related people could live in a dwelling, then they world be limiting family size. Each child must have their own bed according to CPS.

proudmother1

Sun, Nov 02 2014, 11:50 am

I did not read through all of the material, but here is a spin on this topic in general.

Typically, in many areas where there is a concentration of frum families, the public school picks up a significant portion of their funding through taxes that frum homeowners pay. Yet, these families do not utilize the public school, and end up paying astronomical sums to educate their own children.

It is no wonder that people try to come up with creative ways to make some of their dollars count.

I will never condone a chilul hashem, or anything illegal. I don't know if any of this applies here, as I haven't read through this.

But maybe if these families got vouchers for their own schools, or something else to gain some value out of their school tax dollars, things would be different.

Clarissa

Sun, Nov 02 2014, 11:55 am

Every child is guaranteed an education. If one opts out, one has to pay for private school. That’s it. Trying to trash the schools because you don’t like paying taxes to provide the education just hurts your community and, as I said, ultimately bites you in the a**.

I’m very grateful that this isn’t happening here in Manhattan. Great public options (mostly) and great private options for all. Everybody seems to be working, to some extent, to help the local children get an education, regardless of religion, ethnicity, or income level. Does it always work? No, some schools are still bad. But my children go to school with children who live in the projects and local shelters and they’re getting great education, including great science and arts, classroom assistants free of charge, affordable or free afterschool care, services for people who need them (OT, Speech, PT, social and emotional counseling) and free healthy lunches. And even when my kids have graduated and moved on I’ll never complain about paying for it. Those kids live in my neighborhood. If they’re happy, well-educated and successful it benefits us as well as them.

33055

Sun, Nov 02 2014, 12:13 pm

Clarissa wrote:

Clarissa,

Perhaps the answer here is bussing. The burden of supporting all these illegal aliens would have overwelmed the system sooner but for the fact many students opt for a private education. It is not fair to put this type of concentration of a needy population on one district. Why not send them to nearby districts and we in turn educate average students so the burden is shared.

Perhaps another answer is the government that mandates programs like ESL pay for them. .