This American Life episode about Hasidic takeover of Ramapo

happybeingamom

Sun, Nov 02 2014, 10:20 am

Clarissa wrote:

Nobody should be allowed to serve on any school board unless they have at least one child in that school system. Then they can work on “fiscal responsibility” while still being personally interested in the local children getting a decent education and will be less likely to decimate the schools.

"No taxation without representation"

All citizens have the right to vote and run for office, this is a basic American principle.

Clarissa

Sun, Nov 02 2014, 10:46 am

happybeingamom wrote:

"No taxation without representation"

All citizens have the right to vote and run for office, this is a basic American principle.

So you think that this means that people can run for the school board in order to crush the local schools to save their tax dollars? Killing public education is one of your basic American principles? Good luck with that.

There’s a difference between legal rights and ethical rights.

Like I said, it’s not my problem. But I wouldn’t move to Ramapo if someone gave me a free house.

happybeingamom

Sun, Nov 02 2014, 10:59 am

Clarissa wrote:

I think the current system of School Boards, separate districts in a state is an awful way to run an education system.

The system in Ramapo is about legally mandated services to Public and Private Schools and the way the funding calculation made by the state which puts districts with a high population of private school students at a disadvantage.

The problem is not Chasidim being elected to the school board, the problem is about the inequity of the funding by the state. Until this issue is resolved the public school students, the private school students and the taxpayers are suffering. It is very easy to bash Chasidim but that will not solve the problem. Electing parents of public school students will not solve the problem. The problem is inadequate funding by the state.

Anyone who does not want to look at the real issues of inadequate funding and just to blame Chasidim are bigots in my opinion. I say this even though I don't live in Ramapo and I am not Chasidish.

Clarissa for you to compare the NYC Public School which is run by a Mayor and there is local income taxes to the way things are in the Suburbs with outrageously high property taxes is unfair.

There is nothing ethically wrong for a citizen to run for public office. It is a constitutional right.

Clarissa

Sun, Nov 02 2014, 11:10 am

I find it funny that you use “taxation without representation.” James Otis said that because we were taxed by the British Parliament without being able to serve in the Parliament. This is a case where a voting block is creating “education without representation.” Also reprehensible.

I think the Jews of Rockland had better gear up for what the area will feel like twenty years down the line, when the general population has been given substandard educational opportunities.

I love the complaint of bigotry. Yeah, this is about anti-Semitism. After all, what isn’t?

happybeingamom

Sun, Nov 02 2014, 11:25 am

Clarissa wrote:

How come you will not address the issue of inadequate state funding which is causing the problem Put in tomorrow a school board of parents with children in public school and nothing will change because the district does not have enough money to cover the mandated services by law.

My recommendation for the population of Ramapo. That everyone goes to Albany and protests the inadequate funding because until that changes you will remain in the same mess or enroll the children in Public School and pull your kids out of classes that you don't approve of (which I believe is a legal right but I can be wrong). I personally would go for the protest.

I din't use anti-Semitisim but anti Chasidim. If an article/radio show will not address the the inadequate funding from the state which is the majority of the problem and only rants about the Chasidim on the school board what am I supposed to assume?

happybeingamom

Sun, Nov 02 2014, 11:52 am

Clarissa wrote:

So I guess we don’t agree. Big surprise. Like I said, this doesn’t affect me in the least. But I’m not at all surprised about the finger-pointing, nor do I blame those who are pointing them.

I am not either surprised about the finger pointing , it is an old story. XXXX if you do and XXXX if you don't. I do blame finger pointing when the facts are hidden.

Another thing I know unless there are legislative changes about funding the problem will get worse.

dancingqueen

Sun, Nov 02 2014, 12:03 pm

Squishy wrote:

Who says that population is in danger? The burden for the federal immigration policy should not fall on one district in the state thereby vilifying the legal citizens who are hard pressed to pay for the educating of illegal immigrants.

BTW the frum private students get less services and extra curricula activities than the public schools. The public students are not treated as second class. They are still exposed to a border and better secular education than the private schools provide.

Just responding to your first line: many illegal immigrants are from some of the most dangerous places in the world (as in most murders) such as Central America and the carribean.

33055

Sun, Nov 02 2014, 12:42 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

Just responding to your first line: many illegal immigrants are from some of the most dangerous places in the world (as in most murders) such as Central America and the carribean.

It could be. The people could be seeking asylum. They could be seeking economic opportunity which I think is more likely with the local illegal immigrants. They send money back home and invest there. Either way the burden of educating the children of the illegal immigrants should be spread across the country at least across the state and not disproportionately on one school district.

Frumdoc

Sun, Nov 02 2014, 3:30 pm

So are these facts right, irrelevant of the other issues?

There are many privately educated chareidim in the area, who pay taxes, part of which go towards the public school system.

There are many impoverished/ immigrant children whose parents are not English speakers/ living below the breadline who attend the public schools.

The school board is made up of a majority/entirely of chareidi parents whose children do not attend the public schools, but may make use of their services, such as special ed.

The children who attend the public schools do not have any/adequate representation at the public school board and so do not have their voice heard.

The services designed to help integrate the immigrant and impoverished/ disenfranchised children via the public school system have been withdrawn, along with much funding, teaching staff and buildings sold. The Deans of the public schools (who might make a fuss) have been sacked.

The funding for the special ed in the jewish private school has been increased by a comparative amount.

With a fixed pot of money, those who shout the loudest get the cash. Parents who speak no English, work in illegal or below breadline jobs to survive day on day do not have the ability or energy to shout or protect their kids' schooling, and may not even realise what is going on.

It doesn't reflect well on frum jews, even if it is within the law and they have the right to educate their children, is it at the expense of educating someone else's?

happybeingamom

Sun, Nov 02 2014, 3:40 pm

Frumdoc wrote:

By law the money goes to legally mandated services. By federal law all children who need special ed must receive it and it does not matter if it is a private or a public school student.

Until the state formula for funding is changed the situation will get worse.

33055

Sun, Nov 02 2014, 3:48 pm

Frumdoc wrote:

This is not the story. This is the story they are trying to sell.

Frumdoc, there are mandates and minimum levels. ESL is a mandated program which keeps the immigrant children from being integrated in our society.

As I have been saying these children receive a quality professional education far superior to the secular education the private student's receive. It is only because educating the private school children have been removed from the budget has the district been able to absorb the illegal aliens who are continuing flocking to this area. Another school district with a more normal population would have hit the crisis point sooner.

Frumdoc

Sun, Nov 02 2014, 4:02 pm

Squishy wrote:

What does that mean- my understanding of an ESL program is that it is designed to integrate non English speaking kids into an English speaking society by teaching them language skills etc. Is this a prgram where the kids get taught in their own language rather than English, and hence they never develop good English?

Interesting idea - would never work here as there are too many different languages (think 50+) to cater for, so ESL programs are like extra English comprehension and grammar lessons to catch people up to speed if they speak a different language at home.

I am used to the battle for the pot of money that diminishes yearly, but the idea of pitting jews v non jews, especially when the non jews are in the position we were in terms of immigration just a couple of generations ago, when I listen to my grandmother speaking about working in a shmatte factory, speaking yiddish only, working 14 hours then sleeping on the factory floor with 100 others, and comparing that with the same fight these kids are going through, one naturally sides with the underdog whose voice is not being heard.

And I presume it is entirely by choice that the chareidi school provide a poor secular education, and given the choice they would provide no secular classes at all? This is New Square and separatist chassidish, isn't it?

33055

Sun, Nov 02 2014, 4:22 pm

Frumdoc wrote:

Your story if it were true would be unconscionable. It is hate mongers spewing inflammatory nonsense. The latest proposal from these haters is they tried to get Monsey split into 6 wards with the wards drawn in such a way the Hasidim were in herded into 2 wards. You would need a majority of 4 wards to get any legislation passed. Since the frum jews are the majority this is a blatant attempt to disenfranchise the majority and subvert its will to the old timers.

ESL programs don't work for precisely that reason. The children do not become fluent in English when they continue to be taught in their native tongue. The programs should be for a period certain for the transition. It is galling to pay for programs that have been shown not to work.

I am not saying that immigrants shouldn't be educated. I am saying the costs for these immigrants should be born more broadly than on the backs of the local population. Why not bus them to other local school districts and spread the expense across the county. Have the state or federal government pick up the costs of the failed policies. There is too big a concentration of poor people who don't pay their fair share of property taxes.

marina

Sun, Nov 02 2014, 5:26 pm

OMG, what are you two blathering on about?

All states and school districts have problems with funding. No district in NYC or elsewhere is okey dokey with their funding formula. Very many school districts have immigrant children. Not very many school districts are tanking the way Ramapo is. If you prepare (or link to) comparisons to other districts re: funding formula and/or burdens of immigrant populations, I can re-examine your claims.

But right now you just sound like OH NOES, THE UNWASHED MASSES ARE DESCENDING UPON US, WHATEVER SHALL WE DO

saw50st8

Sun, Nov 02 2014, 6:01 pm

marina wrote:

I am not a big supporter of the monsey area in general and have many critiques. I want to add these few statements in:

The amount of public vs private kids in school has drastically swayed towards private in the last 20 years or so. With such a significant change, it's abhorrant that school taxes have gone up drastically while the population using the school has diminished.

The school district was never great. It's not like frum people took over the school district and then it turned from excellent to terrible. It's been pretty terrible for at least 30 years.

The funding her student is $27k per student, which is 30% higher than the NYS average. (that's 2011, the latest data I found easily). Money doesn't solve everything.

I disagree that people should only be allowed on the school board if they have kids in public school. If I am responsible for paying, I should have a say. The school board is not just about having good schools (which east ramapo hasn't since probably the 1970s), but also needs to be fiscally responsible.

I do think many things in East Ramapo are a total chillul hashem, but I think an all frum school board isn't one of them. The actions of some members definitely is.

ETA: This isn't specifically a response to Marina at all.

Tzippora

Sun, Nov 02 2014, 6:07 pm

Question: While the number of students may have dropped, what percentage of the school children are now special ed (aka more likely than not from the frum community, percentagewise)? Special education costs more per student and would skew these numbers substantially. On the downside, this is frequently due to use of the school system within yeshivas as described in the article; on the upside, this would mean that frum people's taxes are going to support the members of their own community, which seems to be what they're arguing for.

saw50st8

Sun, Nov 02 2014, 6:32 pm

Tzippora wrote:

I don't know the answer to that. Here's the information I know:

9000 public school kids
21000 private school kids

In the late 90s, the schools were bad. I went to visit the local high school (I forgot why). There were cops at every entrance and metal detectors. Bad school district isn't new at all.

Last edited by saw50st8 on Sun, Nov 02 2014, 6:47 pm; edited 1 time in total

groisamomma

Sun, Nov 02 2014, 6:40 pm

Squishy wrote:

The burden is not on one district. This district is getting attention-as did Lakewood-because of the makeup of the board. Educating children of illegal immigrants is a burden every single district in this country shares, some more than others, yes, but we all share the burden.