women have rights, you know

Tablepoetry

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 4:52 pm

I don't have the patience to quote lengthy passages, but a few comments in response to Fox.

I can be a feminist today without necessarily being a Third Wave Feminist.

Also, Third Wave feminism is davka a lot more concerned with third world issues and black/ethnic inequalities than second wave feminism ever was. The latter, if anything, was a lot more confined to the privileged white women.

Last edited by Tablepoetry on Mon, Jan 19 2015, 4:59 pm; edited 1 time in total

Tablepoetry

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 4:58 pm

Fox wrote:

The agunah issue? There will always be crazies, but surely a part of a Jewish man's identity *should* be that a real man doesn't withhold a get.

In other words, the things that bother us most are things that we can best change by making sure that Jewish masculinity is authentic and strong.

Sure, we should ensure that Jewish masculinity is authentic and strong. That the men are mentches. That's an important effort.

But as feminists, we need to also ensure that women aren't at the mercy of how mentche-like the men are.
We need to be practical, and realize that power corrupts. You know, even a 'real man' can withold a get if he thinks he's doing it for the right, moral reasons. We need to make sure no man has that option.

imorethanamother

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 5:06 pm

Fox wrote:

The agunah issue? There will always be crazies, but surely a part of a Jewish man's identity *should* be that a real man doesn't withhold a get.

That's not entirely true. I have met quite a lot of divorced women, and while they all got a get, they all were blackmailed into getting one. They gave up on alimony, they gave up on child support, etc.

Also, as the poster above said, "real" men don't beat up their wives. But the system has to allow for the ones that abuse their power and take it away from them. There is no such checks and balances for the agunah problem.

Last edited by imorethanamother on Mon, Jan 19 2015, 5:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

Fox

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 5:07 pm

It's actually very sad, because I don't know anyone -- including women from very insular, traditional communities -- who genuinely disagrees with the goals of First or Second Wave feminism.

Personally, I'm all in favor of men not raping women, but until such time as we can prevent it, I want my daughters to know how to do everything in their power to avoid becoming victims. It's sad to me that there are people out there who would rather discuss the existence of rape culture than see actual women protect themselves.

I'm in favor of women being given equal opportunities to be leaders in business and government, but I'm more interested in my daughters' ability to shape their lives based on *their* values -- not the values of some mega-corporation or political party.

And if soi-disant feminists want to spend all summer arguing whether transgendered women should be allowed to attend women's music festivals with all the cis-women, well, I understand the appeal of a good internecine fight. But don't expect me to respond differently than they might respond to an Imamother brawl over how much you should pay for a shaitel: in short, count me out!

Ultimately, I'm most impressed with women like Etky's niece who walk the walk to make their own and other women's lives better. Those are the real feminists.

Tablepoetry

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 5:17 pm

Fox, maybe it's a cultural thing, maybe it's a country thing, I don't know, but I'm exposed to totally different feminists than you are.

And while transgender is certainly on the feminist map, I don't know anyone who spent anytime arguing which festival they can attend.....

But that does remind me of an issue that once again came up here, for the upteenth time. A young woman posted on facebook how she and her small band were invited to perform at a huge base of soldiers. In fact, I think she was a soldier herself. A few dati soldiers left as she started to perform; she didn't mind, it's their right. But after just one song, the officers asked her to step down, as the presence of a female singer was offensive to a minority of the soldiers. Nevermind that she travelled from afar, that she practiced for this performance for weeks. Needless to say, she was shocked, appalled, humiliated.

You may say, ah, petty stuff. I say, this is the face of our country. When a female singer can no longer complete her scheduled performance because a few soldiers think kol isha is more important than kvod isha, then we have to ensure that kavod cannot be trampled over.

And that's just one more reason why I think the need for feminism is far from passe. Who will care about these things, if not for feminists?

Raisin

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 5:21 pm

A lot of these issues are still real issues in the frum world. Equal pay? Look at frum schools. (especially in the chassidic world) I guarantee you that women are paid a lot less then their male counterparts with similar experience. (but probably less education on teaching methodology) And many women here think it is perfectly acceptable to give their daughters morah a coffee mug with a few chocolates in come chanukah but their sons Rebbe has to get an envelope with at least $50 in.

Likewise, many frum offices will employ a young women and a young man to do similar jobs, and I bet you the man is being paid much more. (because he needs the money more you know)

What about voting rights? I know of one frum community where only married men and single men over a certain age (25?20) are allowed to vote in community elections - this effectively means single, divorced and widowed women (and their children) are not represented. I don;t know what goes on in other furm communities.

I've actually heard men justify denying a get saying that since women are generally favoured as regards to child custody, they need to even the score a bit.

amother

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 5:28 pm

Tablepoetry wrote:

But that does remind me of an issue that once again came up here, for the upteenth time. A young woman posted on facebook how she and her small band were invited to perform at a huge base of soldiers. In fact, I think she was a soldier herself. A few dati soldiers left as she started to perform; she didn't mind, it's their right. But after just one song, the officers asked her to step down, as the presence of a female singer was offensive to a minority of the soldiers. Nevermind that she travelled from afar, that she practiced for this performance for weeks. Needless to say, she was shocked, appalled, humiliated.

These stories are so preventable.

They either shouldn't have invited her if they thought it might be an issue (and do homework on this before, obviously) or given her the dignity and appreciation she deserved.
This is just like the picture censoring. Skip the picture altogether, but why insult people??

Tablepoetry

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 5:34 pm

amother wrote:

I actually do not think the solution is not to invite her, unless we are talking about a Hesder or charedi unit in the army. Otherwise - of course female performers should be invited, in the same ratio as male performers. If 10 or 20 % of the soldiers are offended, let them leave the event. Women performers should not be marginalized and ignored because of the discomfort of a minority of men. The women do not have to suffer.

As for pictures......I'm shocked by the fact it's even legal here in Israel to erase a woman's face from a picture in a publication. You know what, someone should send one of the MPs a suggestion for a new law: make it illegal.

amother

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 5:45 pm

Regarding the invitation to female singers, if it's for the soldiers benefit then it should be planned in advance so that it is indeed for their benefit.

It's all about the audience, right? If the soldiers don't appreciate a female singer, they should be allowed to make alternative plans or some other solution. I agree the majority doesn't have to be deprived because of a minority, but sensitivities must be dealt with civilly on all sides of the situation.

But it's ok to disagree, as long as no one is disrespected, including the soldiers with their religious needs.

Tablepoetry

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 5:49 pm

amother wrote:

It's not all about the audience in the army. It's also about the performer, who are often soldiers themselves. It's also about army ideology. I wouldn't want them to start nixing female singers for any base which has a minority of dati soldiers. That's a dangerous path.

I do think different rules should apply for Hesder and charedi units, and indeed female singers do not perform there. If a young man is so bothered by being around women performing, he should join one of the dati units, rather than infringe upon the woman's right to perform as often as her male counterpart.

Fox

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 5:58 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

Right, and men who abuse their wives, whether physically, emotionally, or financially, are *not* real men.

But too many men are not hearing that from anyone. They're not seeing adequate disdain for abusers in the eyes of other men. They've never seen a recalcitrant ex-husband barred from shul or from a family gathering because he hasn't given his ex-wife a get. They've heard plenty of loshen hora, but not directed at recalcitrant ex-husbands.

Will that remedy every agunah's situation? No, but neither will any other "system" -- a determined wrong-doer will both rationalize his behavior as well as find loopholes to avoid doing the right thing.

Moreover, Jewish men are not just suffering from a lack of negative reinforcement for abuse or just good old-fashioned jerkiness, they are getting precious little positive reinforcement for qualities and behaviors we believe are important -- if we can even articulate what those are.

I recently heard Wes Moore, the author of "The Other Wes Moore" and several other books, speak. "The Other Wes Moore" tells the story of the author and another man born at approximately the same time, growing up in the same neighborhood, also named Wes Moore. Both men had the odds stacked against them as boys: they were African-American, fatherless, and were already in trouble before they were teens. The author, however, became a Rhodes Scholar, veteran, White House fellow, and Wall Street financial whiz. The man who shares his name is in his 14th year of a life sentence for killing a police officer.

The difference, according to the author, was in expectations. When an interviewer commented that it was tragic that Wes Moore (the convict) hadn't lived up to expectations, Wes Moore (the author) commented, "No, the tragedy is that we both did."

So many of the problems I read here on Imamother and hear discussed among observant Jewish women are really about our communities' ambivalence and inability to articulate our expectations of Jewish men. We want to simply react to men behaving badly rather than insist on raising communal expectations.