women have rights, you know

Scrabble123

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 1:28 pm

black sheep wrote:

scrabble, women can do anything men can do. there are no weaknesses inherently "female." I don't agree that in order to be a feminist you must accept that women have inherent weaknesses. that sounds pretty misogynistic to me.

Really? Is pregnancy a strength in the business world? What about your period? What about a man's s-xual drive? Is that a strength? That is not sexist at all....... Women can do whatever men can: sometimes they are just as good, sometimes better, and sometimes worse - it varies by the individual, right.. Is it a strength to be looked down upon? You're up against that and in order to fight it, you must recognize it as a weakness as well. Women going into careers such as crane operators, etc. must realize that their greatest weakness may be how they are viewed by others: that is a weakness that should be acknowledged, validated and addressed, period. Women have "general" shortcomings as do "men" and "children" and just about anything that exists. It becomes more specific on an individual level, although individuals do have to deal with the common misconnections created by the "general" population.....

Last edited by Scrabble123 on Sun, Jan 18 2015, 1:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 1:31 pm

Though women and men technically can do most of what the other gender can, most women are better suited for certain tasks than others. Some men can lactate, as someone pointed out on a different thread, but come on... who does the breastfeeding?

And of course most women are smaller and weaker than most men. There are many exceptions, but the physical is only symbolic of the emotional, mental, psychological, and spiritual differences.

You can accept all that and still believe that different does not mean better or worse. I agree with scrabble here.

Tablepoetry

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 1:33 pm

gittelchana wrote:

According to the Cherem of Rabainu Gershom - a man may not divorce his wife against her will.

It works both ways.

Practically, no, it does not. How many agunim are there? How many agunot? Can you compare the numbers?
How many men out there who had to pay off their wives, give up financial rights, just to attain a get? How many women who paid off their spouses just to get freedom? Who gave up houses or huge sums? Can you compare?
It's pretty clear there's a power imbalance in the gittin system.

amother

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 1:37 pm

black sheep wrote:

some people confuse "not assur" with "a mitzvah." polygamy isn't assur, but it certainly isn't a mitzvah.

but even more shocking to me, and what inspired my post is the response of many women on this board who accept a lower class status for themselves and even think it is ideal. do they know what century we are living in?

if you find yourself surrounded by people who are misogynistic, all the more reason to strengthen your feminist resolve. how do any women allow misogynistic men (and women, from what I am reading here) to determine their fate? try speaking up, and then not backing down. as a woman in 2015, your fate and status is in your own hands. don't give it up to anyone else.

My fate is indeed in my own hands... if I submit to the "rules" I will be miserable yet doing things the "right way". If I rebel I will be just as miserable and ostracized, too.

I love my family. Why cause them grief?

I love many things about my community. I want to fix what's wrong with it, but I can't stand up to the machine all on my own. I will be crushed.

Many women have no problem with the way things are, and until recently I would have told you the same. Only now that my marriage is ending and I see the way I am treated I see the sick truth. But the more noise I make the more I will mess up my own and my children's future.

black sheep

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 1:38 pm

I have noticed in general that when the topic of women's rights come up IRL and now and imamother, you can recognize a misogynist who thinks women are second class citizens right away. (and going along with the theme that women can do anything men can do, some women here on imamother are misogynists too.) since it is no longer acceptable to just say "women have their jobs, like raising the children and smiling for their hard working husbands, and they should focus on doing their jobs instead of trying to take a man's job," well since it is no longer acceptable to talk like that, the misogynists try to broach this position from a more vague angle, "women have smaller frames than men and they have breasts, and they get their periods, so how can you argue that they are the same as men? and how can you suggest that they are not emotional basketcases who should only be raising children and smiling for their overworked husbands? what on earth are those breasts for if not to be home and feed their children and make their husbands happy?"

amother

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 1:42 pm

black sheep wrote:

Whoa... that sounds like extremism.

I for one simply pointed out that men and women are different. Period.

Our differences might make for equally good, yet different, styles of parenting. Or running a business. Or writing. Or davening.

Etc. Etc.

Different, but not better or worse.

And childbearing is a woman's job. Child rearing, on the other hand, is or rather should be, a joint effort.

Tablepoetry

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 1:47 pm

amother wrote:

I hope you just weren't clear here, and that you don't really mean that women's physical weakness is symbolic of emotional or mental or psychological weaknesses. That would mean that bigger, broader people are smarter and more spiritual.....weird assumption.

I think anyway its irrelevant who has what weakness. (We all have weaknesses, tis true, but we shouldn't focus on them). Today these weaknesses no longer define us, we women are no longer so helpless b"h and men are no longer Neanderthal hulks.
The main thing is we should have equal rights, especially in big things like divorce, regardless of whatever weaknesses remain.

amother

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 1:50 pm

Tablepoetry wrote:

That made me laugh. Not at all, I meant our differences in biology are symbolic of our differences in other areas. Why would you consider breastfeeding a weakness? I don't. it's a physical fact.

I did not mean that being smaller physically means we are smaller mentally. LOL!!!

I meant we think differently, that's all.

black sheep

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 1:59 pm

tablepoetry, well said.

amother and scrabble, pointing out physical differences as a way to claim we are different is a way to derail a conversation and sometimes even come to ridiculous conclusions. women should never be treated differently because they are smaller (sometimes) than men.

people who are, well, not feminists, will try to point out how women are "different" in order to come to the next conclusion: that women are weaker than men.

well, us women no longer accept this narrative.

amother

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 3:29 pm

See, many women gladly accept the traditional role as "fulfilling a woman's emotional needs to be the nurturing parent and homemaker". I wouldn't mind that much, as long as:

1 - its role is accorded equal importance and not dismissed with a derogatory "women's work"

2 - the man steps up to the plate and does his fair share, whatever that means for the individual couple, without looking at it as "helping his wife", since it's his children and his home, too.

3 - the woman is better protected by halacha from being held captive by her husband. Financially, as far as providing and caring for the kids on their own, and when it comes to begging for a get, women are severely disadvantaged and men have disproportionate power over them.

4 - a woman has the final say over her body and is not her husband's object. That means a man should be taught it's his duty and pleasure to seduce and please his wife, not the other way around. And if she refuses relations for physical, emotional or relationship reasons she should not be branded a "rebellious wife" as halachah currently does.

5 - some of the above is not even PC because they place demands based on gender. Individual women may prefer seducing their husbands. I would also love a career, or at least a part time job, to develop and share my talents and intellect. I resent that childcare expenses for the hours I'm working are (at least mentally) deducted from my paycheck and not the man's when they are just as much his kids as mine. Why do women have to calculate whether their paycheck is worth it after deducting childcare? Nine months of carrying them wasn't long enough, it continues forever?

But for all the above I'm rebelling against a system that the torah, halacha, and most of all tradition supports. Megaphones on rooftops won't help me against tradition and patriarchy if I have no one on on the inside on my side.

amother

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 3:42 pm

Sure, women have rights. Yet every time our bodies go through a normal, healthy cleansing cycle, we are basically put into cherem, forced to separate from our husbands, no comforting or hugs allowed even though most women are even more down than usual while they PMS. We have to just shut off our relationship for weeks, and then we have to cleanse ourselves, all because in ancient times they were superstitious about women's periods.

We haven't actually come that far.

Heyaaa

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 3:56 pm

amother wrote:

What came first?
Maybe they were superstitious because of niddah. Maybe they felt spiritual impurity back then and it wasn't a superstition but they actually felt tumah.

amother

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 4:00 pm

Heyaaa wrote:

What came first?
Maybe they were superstitious because of niddah. Maybe they felt spiritual impurity back then and it wasn't a superstition but they actually felt tumah.

Most women are fine without relations during menstruation. It's the physical/emotional comfort that many crave. Also the seven days afterwards coincides with many women's hormonal upswing in libido. It seems such a waste... and sometimes it can be a physical ache that is long over by the time mikva night rolls around.

black sheep

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 4:01 pm

both amothers, you are right that some people interpret the torah in a misogynistic way. but not everyone does. not every frum community puts women down. if you are living in a community that does, all the more so reason why you should speak up for yourselves. if not you, then who? do you have daughters? do you want them relegated to second class citizens their whole lives? do you want them to be subjugated to the rules men set for them? women in the secular world have successfully changed the way the world treats them, you can do the same on a smaller scale in your own communities.

the get issue is a big one right now, but on the other hand there are many rabbis who are trying to change this problem, and who recognize it as unfair to women. change doesn't happen overnight, but it only will happen if you are willing to fight for it.

and you should start by not accepting a man's view of women.

amother

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 4:09 pm

If I'm not mistaken, the women in the equal rights movement had many things going for them that I don't, including:

Male supporters

Intellectual arguments (going back to the enlightenment) for the inclusion of women

Religion wasnt brandished like a guilt inducing stick the way it is in my community

There wasn't the huge backlash against their families, like their kids being kicked out of school

Seriously, besides raising my sons right, what practical advice do you have for me?

amother

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 4:13 pm

Heyaaa wrote:

What came first?
Maybe they were superstitious because of niddah. Maybe they felt spiritual impurity back then and it wasn't a superstition but they actually felt tumah.

Maybe they had mystical powers of actually feeling tumah, maybe they just lacked scientific knowledge and had to make do with fairy tales.

In the ancient times, if a person were to breathe life into a dead body, he would be regarded as some kind of magician. Nowadays we call it CPR.

Heyaaa

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 4:18 pm

amother wrote:

The kid you're talking about was dead for hours.

Anyway, I'm curious. Seriously I promise I'm not judging, just curious. (I'm also very bothered by a lot of the stories in Tanach and I have my own reasons why I'm observant, so I promise I'm not judging.) But about you, if you're so skeptical, why are you keeping it?

amother

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 4:25 pm

Heyaaa wrote:

There was recently a story in India about a dead woman who woke up during her funeral. a story recently a story about a mother who hugged her dead newborn child and suddenly the child began breathing. Without advanced machinery, it's very possible for someone to have a low thready pulse that can't be felt by someone who is inexperienced or panicking, but they are actually still alive. Newborn babies can, in extreme cases, go into a sort of hibernation where they appear to be dead but can be woken up when warmed. If it can happen in this century, surely it could have happened centuries ago.

I'm keeping it for a combination of reasons. One of them is that I don't believe everything in the Torah was meant to be taken literally, and I believe that if nowadays we have a scientific explanation for a miracle, we can acknowledge the science while still calling it a miracle. One does not contradict the other. Another important reason is that if I were to become not frum I would lose everything. It wouldn't be worth it. I can have my own understanding with G-d and it's nobody's business but my own.

black sheep

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 4:44 pm

amother wrote:

well, since I am not sure exactly what your predicament is, but it sounds like you feel trapped by a men's view of women in your community as lower class, I would advise you not to accept this view of you. if you are specifically talking about not receiving your get, then I advise you to seek out other rabbi's and women's help groups in your support. other women have done this successfully. but for all other areas, I mean do you want to go to college? do you want to get a job? do you want your opinion to be taken seriously? go ahead and do what you want and say what you want and who cares what any misogynistic man thinks? what do you feel you cannot do because of the threat of your children being kicked out of school?

amother

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 4:47 pm

black sheep wrote:

What I cannoy do is fight the system. I can't change things for my daughter, basically.

I will do all of the above, but its an uphill fight and I want a fairer world for my children.

How do I do this?