women have rights, you know

gittelchana

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 2:50 pm

rofa wrote:

You seem to be missing a fundamental point here. The Torah dictates morality. There is no concept of moral or amoral outside of the Torah.

And according to the Torah, polygamy is okay but not the most moral thing in the world to do.

Look in the second half of Perek 2 in Malachi. There's a heart-wrenching Nevuah there about polygamy and divorce.

Basically, people who went up to EY to rebuild the Bais Hamikdash married second wives who weren't Jewish. The Navi admonishes them not just for marrying non Jewish women, but also for marrying any second woman when they are already married.

The Navi says, "if you hate (you dislike your wife), divorce (her), says Hashem". People answered with a question - didn't Avraham Avinu marry Hagar when he was already married to Sara? The Navi replied - Avraham was not like you. 1) He never had it in his mind to be with Hagar until Sarah asked him to. 2) Even with Sarah, it wasn't about him and his animalistic pleasures. It was for the purpose of the Mitzvah. But you guys just want more women to sleep with....

The Navi tells the people to "cover the Mizbeach in tears" and that Hashem was there at your first wedding when your wife committed to you and you are being unfaithful to her by taking a second wife just to fill your Taava....

Look at that Nevuah and you'll see that polygamy is not considered a good thing. That it is outright bad for many/most people. This Nevuah was long before Rabainu Gershom made his ban.

mommy3b2c

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 3:08 pm

black sheep wrote:

tablepoetry, well said.

amother and scrabble, pointing out physical differences as a way to claim we are different is a way to derail a conversation and sometimes even come to ridiculous conclusions. women should never be treated differently because they are smaller (sometimes) than men.

people who are, well, not feminists, will try to point out how women are "different" in order to come to the next conclusion: that women are weaker than men.

well, us women no longer accept this narrative.

I'm trying to understand what you mean. If I make a statement that men and women are inherently different that means I think men are better? Maybe it means I think women are better. (For the most part I do.) or maybe it's just a fact! Men and women are different. I am not a feminist. I don't need to be. I am confident that I am a woman and can choose do whatever I want to do.

PinkFridge

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 3:29 pm

black sheep wrote:

some people confuse "not assur" with "a mitzvah." polygamy isn't assur, but it certainly isn't a mitzvah.

but even more shocking to me, and what inspired my post is the response of many women on this board who accept a lower class status for themselves and even think it is ideal. do they know what century we are living in?

if you find yourself surrounded by people who are misogynistic, all the more reason to strengthen your feminist resolve. how do any women allow misogynistic men (and women, from what I am reading here) to determine their fate? try speaking up, and then not backing down. as a woman in 2015, your fate and status is in your own hands. don't give it up to anyone else.

Sorry for posting before I have time to read the rest of the thread (2 more pages!) but some years ago I heard Warren Kozak, author of The Rabbi of 84th Street, speak. He said that in preparation for this book he spent a lot of time with frum people and that he found that women were not second class citizens, they were funny, warm, smart and ran the show. This was the perspective of a secular Jew of a conservative background on the frum chassidic women he met.

black sheep

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 4:21 pm

mommy2b2c wrote:

if you feel that you can choose to do whatever you want to do, then you are a feminist.

a feminist is someone who feels women have equal choice and equal rights.

black sheep

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 4:37 pm

I started this thread in direct response to the polygamy threads, where many women here seemed to think women have to accept a second class role in life. I wanted to point out that 1. women have rights, feminism is a fight long ago won by women, and no longer do the men in your life get to dictate your roles and 2. just because the torah "allows" for something doesn't make it moral or right. my main point was that you should not be intimidated by the argument that the torah expects women to take a second class role based on this allowance, and instead to stand up for your rights and to remember that the torah also "allows" for many other immoral things which we would never consider, even in conversation. imagine a conversation on imamother about how much you should allow your rebbe's son to beat him, if he was beaten unconscious is that okay if it was done out of love.... or a discussion about marrying off your daughters at 9 years old to a 30 year old man. but polygamy is somehow a valid topic of conversation? do you women have no self respect?

anyway, that was my main point, and somehow this conversation got turned into a conversation about feminism, which I am okay with. let me state for the record: I am a feminist. I mean, how could I not be, I am a woman! I can never understand women who say they are not feminists. do you not believe you should be treated equally? do you not feel you should have the same choices that men have?

I feel sad for all the women who not only think they don't deserve equal rights, but also think it is somehow important to declare that they are not feminists, lest someone think for a moment they want to be treated well. lest someone think they have self respect.

mommy3b2c

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 4:44 pm

black sheep wrote:

if you feel that you can choose to do whatever you want to do, then you are a feminist.

a feminist is someone who feels women have equal choice and equal rights.

Not really. A feminist is one who feels that Women SHOULD do everything that men do. Feminists feel the need to prove themselves, to prove they are just as good as men. Feminists feel women are exactly the same as men. I feel none of those things. I think I am very different then men. Not worse, just different. I also don't feel that women should get high powered jobs or become cops to prove that they are just as capable as men. They should get too ar jobs because they have an interest in them. Basically, stop comparing men and women and everybody do whatever you want, but don't try to force me to believe were exactly the same, because we're not.

amother

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 4:47 pm

I think the main argument against feminism is that the torah is not very into rights, only as interpretted as the flip side of an obligation.

For example, if your husband is obligated in the kesubah to support you, we infer that it is your right. To phrase it in terms of it is my right to be supported by my husband is not torahdig language.

So we may agree in essence, that we theoretically have equal rights and opportunities, but we phrase it differently.

That's been.my understanding.

youngishbear

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 4:49 pm

mommy2b2c wrote:

I think this is the new feminism lol.

black sheep

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 4:50 pm

mommy2b2c wrote:

this is untrue and unfortunately a common misconception. feminism is about gender equality, not about turning women into men or about man hating.

rockingbells

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 5:02 pm

mommy2b2c wrote:

You are wrong by every general definition of feminism. You should realize that is your opinion based on maybe what you've been exposed to etc etc.

Webster-
fem·I·nism noun \ˈfe-mə-ˌni-zəm\
: the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities

Eh look it all up yourself... I think you'll find it enlightening.
It is so frustrating how misconstrued the term gets (particular in our circles). Feminism (in general (obviously there hundreds of different feminist ideologies that you are probably confused about)) is about men and women having equal rights. It is not about men and women being the same thing. And that is not my opinion. That is the definition of feminism.

comedian Aziz Ansari put it -
"If you believe that men and women have equal rights, if someone asks if you’re feminist, you have to say yes because that is how words work,” he says, joking, “You can’t be like, ‘Oh yeah I’m a doctor that primarily does diseases of the skin.’ Oh, so you’re a dermatologist? ‘Oh no, that’s way too aggressive of a word! No no not at all not at all.’”

MagentaYenta

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 5:05 pm

amother wrote:

We have become so obsessed with feminism that we have created quotas within municipal governments to enable women to be police officers. It's sad but I would prefer a man to come to my safety than a women police officer.

You are confusing feminism with gender equality in the workplace and equal opportunity.

rockingbells

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 5:06 pm

mommy2b2c wrote:

I also don't feel that women should get high powered jobs or become cops to prove that they are just as capable as men. They should get too ar jobs because they have an interest in them. .

If you think that women should be able to work in fields that they have an interest in.. just like men are.. you, my friend, are a feminist. Welcome to the club.

imokay

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 5:08 pm

We have rights- in America, as a woman, in 2015.
Feminist or not (and I hope I'm allowed to say this,) I feel like the Torah (has been interpreted in a way that) gives an uneven balance of power in the man's favor. I wonder had the chachamim, rishonim, etc. been comprised of women, would halachos as we know them be different.
For example, as a general rule:
He is the head of household, wife must obey his wishes.
He inherits.
A wife's belongings become her husband's.
All the rabbis are men. (even pertaining to women's issues that a man cannot ever fully comprehend, no matter how learned)
Women aren't considered reliable witnesses.
A woman needs a get to divorce; no heter מאה רבנים for her.
Learning gemara, for a woman, is discouraged (iirc in one place it's compared to a donkey dancing on the table).
A woman who is unfaithful to her husband is a זונה, must divorce, whilst a straying man is a ??
Etc.

Of course, I get that women are great, and super important, etc but I feel like a lot of the עקרת הבית and עזר כנגדו shiurim bits, while true and important, are a PR spin to obscure the inherent inequity.

(Which btw personally, I don't mind. I love my role as a Jewish mama raising my children. I am happy to feel protected by my husband and be 'his'. )

amother

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 5:12 pm

imokay wrote:

This is the sentiment I was referring to in my post complaining about the lack of rights in my community. Some women actually love their roles, and I would too, with those conditions.

Imokay, you're lucky your husband is your protector. Woe to the woman whose husband betrays her and turns on her. Then she is under his cruel control, with kids in the picture, forever.

youngishbear

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 5:18 pm

I think we women of 2015 take the right to work in whichever field we choose for granted. We view women's rights as a battle won, in terms of equal opportunity in the workplace at least.

Can we define the secular women's rights movement of today?

There is a lot of discussion now about the social perceptions and prejudice women must battle against in order to succeed. If she's a softie, she's a pushover. If she stands firm, she's a b*tch. This modern battle of image and impressions is a subtle one. Is it possible to become gender blind, like we hope to have a colorblind society?

mommy3b2c

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 5:56 pm

rockingbells wrote:

If you think that women should be able to work in fields that they have an interest in.. just like men are.. you, my friend, are a feminist. Welcome to the club.

I am not a feminist. I think you are mixed about what feminism actually is. There is something called a happy medium. According to your definition there are only two types of people: feminists, and anti feminists. That is not the case. One thing I've noticed about people who are feminists, is that they always feel that they need to prove women are as good as men in everything. I disagree with that. I think women are much better at certain things, and men are much better at certain things. Of course there are exceptions to the rules, and everyone should do what makes them happy. I admit, if I lived 100 years ago, I probably would have been a feminist because women were really treated as second class citizens. However, the battle is over. It is won. Women are considered equal and have the same rights as men. Stop fighting for rights. We have them.