women have rights, you know

black sheep

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 9:11 pm

I agree with you on one point, mommy2b2c, that women have rights now in 2015! that was exactly the point of my thread! why are women accepting a lower class status when they no longer have to? why are women on imamother giving and validity to the discussion of polygamy? is this 1820s russia? is this 1730s syria? wasn't this fight already won? women don't need to accept bad treatment anymore just because they are female.

but on your other point, on your definition of feminism, you are wrong. why not do a few minutes of research, use google, check wikipedia, you will find that feminism means equal rights for women. are you for equal rights for women? then you are a feminist.

rockingbells

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 9:25 pm

mommy2b2c wrote:

I am not a feminist. I think you are mixed about what feminism actually is. There is something called a happy medium. According to your definition there are only two types of people: feminists, and anti feminists. That is not the case. One thing I've noticed about people who are feminists, is that they always feel that they need to prove women are as good as men in everything. I disagree with that. I think women are much better at certain things, and men are much better at certain things. Of course there are exceptions to the rules, and everyone should do what makes them happy. I admit, if I lived 100 years ago, I probably would have been a feminist because women were really treated as second class citizens. However, the battle is over. It is won. Women are considered equal and have the same rights as men. Stop fighting for rights. We have them.

That is not my definition. That is THE definition. This is how words work.
You.... don't know what feminism is. Rolling Eyes

As I said you are mixing up *feminism* with specific historical feminist ideologies and individual opinions on gender that you have been exposed to.

When I say I am a feminist it does not mean that I think men and women are just as good at everything as each other and that they should do everything the same. When I say you are a feminist based on what you said about occupation.... well I can back that up with the dictionary Rolling Laughter

There are not just feminists and anti-feminists... there are feminists, anti-feminists, and people who don't know what feminism is and are scared to call themselves feminists because of their misconceptions or ignorance.

mommy3b2c

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 9:29 pm

black sheep wrote:

The people on imamother who are concerned about polygamy, are obviously nutcases. They are a tiny minority, therefore they do not concern me.

Second, I know a lot about feminism and it's history. (I am a history teacher) and I am telling you that feminism has evolved. The google definition maybe be equal rights for women, but there is a lot more to it then that. It is a whole belief system. And I am telling you , I am not a feminist! (Nor am an anti feminist.)

mommy3b2c

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 9:30 pm

rockingbells wrote:

That is not my definition. That is THE definition. This is how words work.
You.... don't know what feminism is. Rolling Eyes

Read my explanation to black sheep . And I'm not scared of anything.

rockingbells

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 9:54 pm

mommy2b2c wrote:

Read my explanation to black sheep . And I'm not scared of anything.

OK, first- I agree about the posts about polygamy on this site.

But in terms of "I'm a history teacher, I know things, I am not a feminist and I'm not anti-feminist" ...
It seems like your only argument backing your own definition of feminism is that you are a teacher.. which, I'm sorry...
Rolling Eyes

I am aware of the history of feminism, not as in-depth as you might be but I've taken a college level history of feminism class so I'd say pseudo-academically. Either way, that's why I pointed out that perhaps your confusion about the general definition of feminism is based on those feminist ideologies that have sprung up throughout history, and opinions about gender which you have been exposed to. Nothing I said was based on my opinion, which is why the fact that you keep refuting honestly surprises me.

But, alas, a history teacher...

mommy3b2c

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 11:14 pm

rockingbells wrote:

I am tired of arguing, but by your own admission, feminism consists of a number of ideologies, so its obviously not possible to explain it in a two sentence definition.

Second, I just want to make sure I understand you correctly. You believe that one is either feminist or anti feminist and that there are no other choices?

youngishbear

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 11:16 pm

mommy2b2c wrote:

If I understood correctly, she's saying you are indeed a feminist, just because you believe women have rights. You are just not those nasty sorts of feminists you picture when you think of the word.

mommy3b2c

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 11:22 pm

youngishbear wrote:

If I understood correctly, she's saying you are indeed a feminist, just because you believe women have rights. You are just not those nasty sorts of feminists you picture when you think of the word.

I believe I understood what she's saying. But what I am trying to explain to her is that just because I believe in women's rights does not make me a feminist. Feminism is an ideology and a movement that has evolved over the years and I am not part of that movement, nor do I believe in a lot of what they stand for. According to her logic, you can only be one of two things, feminist or anti feminist. That is not the case. If I believe in gay rights, does that make me pro gay?

youngishbear

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 11:28 pm

mommy2b2c wrote:

I am not sure I agree with your labeling feminism a movement at this point. It's more of a belief, like does believing in monotheisim make me religious? Maybe, maybe not. But according to black sheep, or whoever else, if you believe or support the basic premise of the feminist fight for equality, you qualify for the umbrella title...

I see why you disagree with that. You believe in gun rights... but are not a member of the NRA? Is that a good comparison?

Tablepoetry

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 1:32 am

There is no one feminism, just like there's no one orthodox Judaism, let alone judaism. There are many different streams, from radical to traditional, from essentialist to deconstructist, from lesbian to traditional. You don't have to agree with them all to be a feminist, just like you don't need to wear a shpitzel to be a Jew.
I would say the common underlying ideology is the belief that women deserve equal freedom, equal choices, equal pay, equal dignity.

mommy3b2c

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 5:55 am

Tablepoetry wrote:

I agree that the common ideology is the equality. And I definitely agree with that basic, underlying idea. However, what I don't agree with, is that everyone is either a feminist or an anti feminist which is what other posters are insinuating. According to them, anyone who believes that women should have equal rights and should be treated with respect is a feminist. My husband believes that. Is he a feminist? ( I assure you, he is not.) like I mentioned earlier, the original feminist movement, the suffragettes, I would have been part of, but today's movement which is all about demanding the right to abortions and insisting women should be allowed to be rabbis, among other things, I am not a part of. Nor do I want to be.

mommy3b2c

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 5:59 am

youngishbear wrote:

It is a pretty good comparison, actually. However, my point is that I don't believe in the whole fight because I believe the fight is over. Of course I believe in women equality. Everyone I know does. That doesn't make us all feminists.

Tablepoetry

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 6:51 am

mommy2b2c wrote:

Many of us don't believe the fight is over, certainly not on a global scale (look at the horrors women face in third world countries), and not even in western society ( maternity rights, the right to normal maternity leave, equal pay for equal work, se@ual harrassment, the fact women are expected to be superwomen today, etc). To say nothing of orthodox Jewish culture (the helplessness of women in the divorce system, the problems with unequal inheritance, the phenomenon of erasing women both literally and figuratively, the expectation that not only will women be supersupersuperwomen - in other words enslaved- and have careers, 12 children and take care of the home, etc etc).

Anyway. I find it troubling that people who believe in women's rights shy away from the label feminist, but ultimately it is just semantics. The important thing is to ensure men and women do indeed share the same liberties.

mommy3b2c

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 7:12 am

Tablepoetry wrote:

Don't have time to address all your points now. But I will point out, the reason women are expected to be super super women is BECAUSE of feminism. The feminist movement decided that women are lesser than men if they don't work outside the home. As a result, women ended up being pressured to get high powered jobs, AND take care of their families. Who decided that being a homemaker is lesser work then being a lawyer? FEMINISTS.

Tablepoetry

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 7:33 am

mommy2b2c wrote:

No, you've got it wrong. Society decided being a homemaker is lesser work, patriarchal society. Do you really think that before feminism people respected the role of homemaker like they respected the role of lawyer or doctor? Definitely not..homemaker was subordinate, and women were 'little women' ..and originally feminism bought into these values, considering homemaker a lesser role. However, feminism has long since evolved (decades ago) and most streams of modern feminism demand the same respect for a SAHM as for a lawyer.

And certainly modern feminism advocated equal sharing of housework. A female lawyer, in a feminist scenario, should not be stuck with all the domestic chores and childcare.

Most streams of modern feminism are about choice and freedom to navigate. About encouraging women to explore all the different options. About encouraging them to study in the universities whose doors were once shut before them, encouraging to be present and vocal in the public sphere. Also about encouraging them to explore their feminity, their womanhood, their motherhood, etc.

So many choices. You can't do it all. If you ask me, modern feminism's biggest challenge is how to encourage free choice without creating the expectation that women Do it All. Women can't do it all, (neither can men) and I think feminism is still trying to find a way to deal with that. That's ok, all good ideologies need to always be in motion, in dialogue with the environment, always improving and adjusting.

Last edited by Tablepoetry on Mon, Jan 19 2015, 7:57 am; edited 1 time in total

etky

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 7:37 am

Gosh this is one chaotic thread! So many concepts and issues from different realms and semantic fields thrown together under one heading. I'd like to jump in but I don't quite know where....
I think that almost all the points that posters raised have some validity to them.
I also think it's reallly difficult to have a general discussion about womens rights and the feminist movement that also addresses 'feminism and orthodoxy'. The latter topic really deserves its own thread.

ally

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 8:12 am

mommy2b2c wrote:

Lol. With this logic, the greatest feminists are the proponents of kollel.
And yet these same roshei yeshiva put out essay upon essay and psak halacha upon psak halacha to distance themselves and followers from the evils of feminism.