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Women have rights, you know

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mommy3b2c

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 9:19 am

ally wrote:

Lol. With this logic, the greatest feminists are the proponents of kollel.
And yet these same roshei yeshiva put out essay upon essay and psak halacha upon psak halacha to distance themselves and followers from the evils of feminism.

One similarity between those kollel extremists and some feminist ideologies are that they are both EXTREMISTS. The opposites of two extremes are in fact the same thing.

supty

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 9:29 am

mommy2b2c wrote:

Don't have time to address all your points now. But I will point out, the reason women are expected to be super super women is BECAUSE of feminism. The feminist movement decided that women are lesser than men if they don't work outside the home. As a result, women ended up being pressured to get high powered jobs, AND take care of their families. Who decided that being a homemaker is lesser work then being a lawyer? FEMINISTS.

No, that's just the frum world. And it has nothing to do with "lesser work" or feminism and everything to do with supporting the man's learning while having very large families. Feminism is about CHOICES for women- you can still be a sahm, but nowadays you also have the option to be a doctor, lawyer, etc. In the same vein, it is not as uncommon nowadays to have a stay at home dad while the woman works. Anything goes- that's the benefit of "feminism" in my opinion.

Tablepoetry

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 9:34 am

mommy2b2c wrote:

One similarity between those kollel extremists and some feminist ideologies are that they are both EXTREMISTS. The opposites of two extremes are in fact the same thing.

Interesting. You would label the hashkafa that encourages women to support their long-term learning husbands as extremist? Likely not a popular viewpoint on this board.

Fox

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 10:26 am

etky wrote:

Gosh this is one chaotic thread!

Yes, indeed. Please accept my apology in advance for the length of this post. I know I'm long-winded, but sometimes there are no short, pithy answers to big questions.

I don't know whether all of those who claim to have taken courses in feminist history and theory are too lazy to elucidate some of the issues or simply believe the rest of us are too stupid to understand, but a history lesson is definitely in order.

Feminist activism is popularly divided into three "waves." Of course, within the fields of gender studies and feminist theory, there are people who disagree with these division, but the divisions have been popularized within the media and are certainly embraced by many feminist writers and activists.
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First Wave Feminism -- Voting Rights

"First Wave" feminism was focused almost exclusively on gaining voting rights. In the US, this was achieved in 1920, though it's interesting to note that individual localities were often lax about preventing women from voting. My grandmother and great-grandmother voted long before their state ratified the right to vote; seems the local electoral authorities "didn't think it was fair," and never turned away women who wished to vote.
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Second Wave Feminism -- Equal Rights

"Second Wave" feminism emerged in the shadow of the civil rights movement and focused on goals that seem quaintly modest to us today: equal pay for equal work and making discrimination solely on the basis of gender illegal. I was born in 1960, and I have a few memories of the "bad old days" before Second Wave feminism.

I clearly remember my mother's frustration in graduate school when she had to take a class with a notorious professor who always announced quite openly that he lowered the grades of women in the class by one grade level because he didn't believe women belonged in higher education. This was not illegal or even much remarked upon, and the general consensus was, "He's a jerk; ignore him."

Another memory is that many, many banks refused to grant mortgages to single women, no matter their income, or refused to take their income into account when a couple applied for a mortgage. My widowed grandmother, a well-to-do woman who owned nearly a block of apartment buildings in her community, had to have my father on the mortgage before the bank (with which she had done business for 40 years) would issue it.

And, of course, it was perfectly acceptable to pay a woman less than a man for the same work.

Many women today don't entirely understand how many obstacles there were prior to Second Wave feminism and how indebted we should all be to the women who stood up for rights we largely take for granted today.

Like many women, I considered myself more-or-less a feminist until the late 80s or early 90s, with the emergence of "Third Wave" feminism.
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Third Wave Feminism -- What Do Womyn Want?

What are the issues feminists are fighting today? According to NOW (National Organization for Women -- the most prominent actor in Second Wave feminism), feminism now concerns itself with

* Reproductive rights
* Economic Justice
* Racial Equality
* Ending Violence Against Women
* LGBT Rights
* Constitutional Equality

Not to be self-centered, but none of those impact my day-to-day life in a meaningful way or the lives of my friends. And even those that are legitimate societal problems are not exclusively or even primarily impacting women.

If we look at the most-talked-about feminist issues, though, the list becomes both more focused but of even less interest:

* Reclaiming Degoratory Terms
* Rape Culture
* Gender Identity
* Transgender Issues

Well, sorry, but I'm not terribly interested in fighting for my right to consider "b*tch" a compliment; the right to get drunk to the point of insentience without bad things happening to me; or whether transgender individuals who identify as women should be allowed to attend women's music festivals (a *huge* topic in feminist circles last summer).

Third Wave feminism proudly draws deeply from post-modernism, deconstruction theory, queer theory, and a variety of other trains of thought that exist almost exclusively in the academic world.

And this is why we get the response so beloved on Imamother as well as IRL of, "I believe in equality, but . . ." Even the icons of Second Wave feminism, such as the late Betty Friedan and Gloria Steinem, became disenchanted with the navel-gazing that seems to characterize feminist thought and action today.
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Are there legitimate problems that feminism should be addressing today? Absoultely! As other posters have pointed out, many women throughout the world are in desperate need of advocacy.

But, frankly, unless we are to immerse ourselves in the culture and history of those places, we have no business butting our noses too far in. India, for example, is beginning to address s-xual violence, but the problem has roots in an ancient caste system and imperial history that most of us don't entirely understand. If you're worried about women in Third World and/or highly patriarchal cultures, you're better off giving a donation to the Heifer Project or the Grameen Foundation.
--------------------------------------

Now, how does all this relate to the observant Jewish world? If the various "crises" defined by the Jewish media along with the complaints on Imamother are to be believed, I suggest that women's issues are not the most pressing problem in our communities.

Rather, men are the ones who are currently struggling: many of our men are legitimately confused about what it means to be a man in contemporary Jewish society; the recent "Sexodous" article is, IMHO, extremely applicable to the Jewish world; the financial pressure that men in all communities feel; how a Jewish man properly defines masculinity or success . . . These are the issues that impact virtually every one of us each day.

I would argue that the most important feminist problem that observant Jewish women should be concerning themselves with right now is the well-being of our fathers, brothers, husbands, and sons.

mommy3b2c

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 10:30 am

Tablepoetry wrote:

Interesting. You would label the hashkafa that encourages women to support their long-term learning husbands as extremist? Likely not a popular viewpoint on this board.

Not the hashkafa that encourages.

The "hashkafa" that says you must, and that if you don't that you obviously don't value Torah. And that you are a lesser Jew/person if your husband is not in kolell. And that you should support him at your expense, even if you don't want to and it's not the right derech for you. That I call extremism.

black sheep

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 11:58 am

Fox wrote:

Third Wave Feminism -- What Do Womyn Want?

What are the issues feminists are fighting today? According to NOW (National Organization for Women -- the most prominent actor in Second Wave feminism), feminism now concerns itself with

* Reproductive rights
* Economic Justice
* Racial Equality
* Ending Violence Against Women
* LGBT Rights
* Constitutional Equality

Not to be self-centered, but none of those impact my day-to-day life in a meaningful way or the lives of my friends. And even those that are legitimate societal problems are not exclusively or even primarily impacting women.

If we look at the most-talked-about feminist issues, though, the list becomes both more focused but of even less interest:

* Reclaiming Degoratory Terms
* Rape Culture
* Gender Identity
* Transgender Issues

Well, sorry, but I'm not terribly interested in fighting for my right to consider "b*tch" a compliment; the right to get drunk to the point of insentience without bad things happening to me; or whether transgender individuals who identify as women should be allowed to attend women's music festivals (a *huge* topic in feminist circles last summer).

okay, fox, so you are not concerned with modern day feminist issues. speak for yourself please! many women, myself included, ARE concerned with the issues you listed, which is far from a complete list of modern day feminist issues. you don't feel concerned with derogatory terms towards women? rape is not an issue for you? you think violence against women is an issue which is confined to third world countries and frat parties? well, you are wrong. many women in your very community, and in the larger community of western america, experience violence against them because of their gender on a daily basis, ranging from being called a b@tch at work for speaking her mind to being raped in a stairwell. maybe this isn't your personal fight. but let's at least not claim the issues are no longer applicable to western culture, to religious jews.

as for what you think women "should" be concerning themselves with:

Fox wrote:

I would argue that the most important feminist problem that observant Jewish women should be concerning themselves with right now is the well-being of our fathers, brothers, husbands, and sons.

well, I have heard that line before. the most important issue to jewish women is raising their children, catering to their husbands. very nice. while there is some truth to the fact that some men in the chariedi world specifically are facing a crisis of identity, I certainly don't think this is the most pressing issue facing jewish women today, especially in the same chareidi world.

once thing we can agree on based on your post: you are not a feminist.

ally

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 12:10 pm

Fox wrote:

Now, how does all this relate to the observant Jewish world? If the various "crises" defined by the Jewish media along with the complaints on Imamother are to be believed, I suggest that women's issues are not the most pressing problem in our communities.

Rather, men are the ones who are currently struggling: many of our men are legitimately confused about what it means to be a man in contemporary Jewish society; the recent "Sexodous" article is, IMHO, extremely applicable to the Jewish world; the financial pressure that men in all communities feel; how a Jewish man properly defines masculinity or success . . . These are the issues that impact virtually every one of us each day.

I would argue that the most important feminist problem that observant Jewish women should be concerning themselves with right now is the well-being of our fathers, brothers, husbands, and sons.

The crises I see in the Jewish community - and all of these are amplified the further right of the spectrum you travel- are the agunot, the dichotomy professional women face when they are accepted as equals in the workplace but have no such opportunities or roles in the ritual sphere, women who are being made to do two full time jobs (or more? how many kids is one full time job) , raising large families and singlehandedly supporting them , and hyper-segregation leading to men having distorted images of women.

I would say the problems that you define for men are tied deeply into the above issues - but I don't think the solution lies in ignoring women's issues.

ally

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 12:14 pm

mommy2b2c wrote:

Assuming that money doesn't fall from the trees (or parents - perhaps this is a false assumption) and one spouse is going to have to work - the fact that it is the woman in the kollel world is an explicit statement that her role as homemaker and child raiser is secondary and inferior to his role as full time torah learner.

This is the basis of the kollel system. No extremism needed. Unless you think the whole system is extremist. Or you think hishtadlus is a synonym for father/father in law.

mommy3b2c

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 12:41 pm

ally wrote:

I don't quite understand what your saying. If a women is willing to work double or triple hard, how does that translate to homemaking and child raising is inferior to Torah learning? Somebody has to work if someone is going to learn all day.

Fox

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 1:14 pm

black sheep wrote:

Ah, you're changing the terms of the discussion. I didn't say, "the most important issue to jewish women is raising their children, catering to their husbands."

Nor did I define the issue in terms of the "chareidi" world -- a term that has little application in the U.S.

Rather, I said that our men are more "lost" right now; they have too few and too inadequate role models and too little guidance about what it means to be a Jewish man. They don't need "catering"; they need a metaphorical kitchen!

Is this a "feminist" problem? That's perhaps beyond my pay grade, but it is most certainly a "gender" problem, and I believe it affects nearly every observant Jewish woman every day.

black sheep wrote:

once thing we can agree on based on your post: you are not a feminist.

How do you draw that conclusion? If your litmus test for feminist commitment is adherence to Third Wave feminist ideology, then you are correct. I am not a feminist. Nor was the late Betty Friedan. And Elizabeth Fox-Genovese certainly wouldn't have made your cut. I'm okay with being a non-feminist like either of them.
------------------------------------

Your examples of things I should be concerned about does a great deal to make your point, but unfortunately,*your* concerns are not the concerns of Third Wave feminism. They are not especially interested in violent stranger attacks; they aren't spending a lot of ink or bytes worrying about rape in empty stairwells: they're publicizing "rape culture," which has very little to do with the day-to-day dangers women face.
------------------------------------

Third Wave feminists would also be thoroughly uninterested in your example of being called a "b*tch" at work. Writer Elizabeth Wurzel would tell you to own the term, not eradicate it.
------------------------------------

Let me give you some perspective from my own past regarding the rape issue: I grew up in a university community, and Second Wave feminism was part and parcel of the environment, including the Jewish community.

Do you know what feminists were doing about rape in the 70s? They were lobbying police departments and hospitals about the treatment of victims and actually giving classes to officers and ER teams. They gave tons of free classes to women on how to prevent and avoid rape, and taught women and young girls effective self-defense measures.

No one carried her mattress to class to publicize that rape or non-consensual s-x exists or that universities should protect their students better. It was more down-and-dirty: how to avoid being targeted as a victim; how to get away without being assaulted; how to fight the guy off if necessary; and how to compassionately care for women when they were victimized.

Articulate the opinion today that women need to proactively protect themselves against assault, though, and you're automatically accused of blaming the victim, and if you're in a public role, possibly targeted with a "Slutwalk."
------------------------------------

As for the fact that women in my community are still the victims of gender-based violence, yes -- most of us know that. That's why our communities have organizations like Sholom Task Force, Shalva, Project Shield, and many, many others. We should all support those organizations both financially and with chizzuk; they are on the front lines of these problems in the Jewish community.
------------------------------------

I'm not hardened against the knowledge that women in many places face unimaginable violence, discrimination, and hardship -- merely because they are women.

In fact, that's part of my beef with Third Wave feminism. They would rather focus on intractable White Girl Problems (especially if they can do so within a nice, comfy college campus) than bestir themselves to actually help anybody.

Muhammad Yunus has done more to reduce s-xual violence and the degradation of women than all Third Wave feminists combined.
------------------------------------

Another reason I am less than supportive of Third Wave feminism is its increasing alliance with the BDS movement and New Atheism.
------------------------------------

So did I leave the feminism of my youth, or did it leave me? I would argue that it left me.

The practical commitment to making every woman's life better seems to have been largely jettisoned in favor of writing obtuse analysis of gender roles and debating the latest Judith Butler utterances. All well and good if one is in need of a hobby or can get university funding, but at the end of the day, quilting results in a nice blanket and knitting nets you a sweater.

ally

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 1:20 pm

mommy2b2c wrote:

The woman goes to work because her staying home while her husband goes to work is considered an inferior setup. In other words, her husbands role as a learner is more important than her role as a stay at home mom.

Fox

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 1:30 pm

ally wrote:

I would argue that men (and their lack of clarity about what masculinity means) are the biggest "issue" women have right now.

And I would sharply disagree that the problems are limited to more insular or right-wing communities; I think the problems just look different.

Is kollel culture an issue? Sure. But so is the "country club-ization" of many left-wing communities, where higher school tuitions and real estate prices in hashkafically-compatible neighborhoods effectively exclude anyone whose income isn't adequate.

The agunah issue? There will always be crazies, but surely a part of a Jewish man's identity *should* be that a real man doesn't withhold a get.

In other words, the things that bother us most are things that we can best change by making sure that Jewish masculinity is authentic and strong.

ora_43

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 1:57 pm

Fox - loved your post. I disagreed with the last lines about focusing on men, but other than that, loved it.

"So did I leave the feminism of my youth, or did it leave me?" - exactly. If I went into a meeting of the average organization here that calls itself feminist, the response wouldn't be like "hello, fellow sister! let us fight together for equal wages!" it would be like "why are you wearing that on your head? you have how many children? quick, let us free you from the patriarchy!"

I'm exaggerating only a little. It's hard to identify with a certain group when the loud and clear message from that group's self-proclaimed representatives is "you don't belong here."

That said, I think the ideal response is to realize that feminism (like certain other ideologies) should not be defined solely by the people who claim to represent it, and to go ahead and identify as feminist anyway despite defining the term somewhat differently. But I can see why most religious Jewish feminists I know call themselves "active in women's issues" or "a female educator" or something similar, not "feminist."

ora_43

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 2:08 pm

I disagree with the idea of focusing on men because (and this is another reason I don't like the "feminist" label so much) I think that in general, women's issues are men's issues and vice versa.

Like, when women are viewed as weak, men with "womenly" traits are viewed as weak, too - ie male options are limited. When men are expected to learn Torah full-time no matter what their abilities or their financial needs, women are expected to support them. When raising children is considered "women's work," men may find themselves detached from their children (whether due to long hours at work, or to something more serious like losing custody).

And beyond that, as people our lives are intertwined. Women have fathers, husbands, brothers and sons who are male, men have mothers, wives, sisters, daughters. I literally can't think of anyone I know who doesn't love someone of the opposite s-x, somehow. I'm not saying love erases stereotypes or backwards thinking, but it does go very far toward making all gender issues *people* issues.

Fox

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 2:16 pm

ora_43 wrote:

Fox - loved your post. I disagreed with the last lines about focusing on men, but other than that, loved it.

Lol, maybe I should have said "fixing men."

ora_43 wrote:

"So did I leave the feminism of my youth, or did it leave me?" - exactly. If I went into a meeting of the average organization here that calls itself feminist, the response wouldn't be like "hello, fellow sister! let us fight together for equal wages!" it would be like "why are you wearing that on your head? you have how many children? quick, let us free you from the patriarchy!"

I don't think you're exaggerating by much.

I used to post on Gawker.com and Jezebel.com whenever Jewish issues came up. When I started, it was a way to occupy myself while on hold as well as sharpen my persuasive skills. However, I found that I could really change the direction and focus of the conversation -- a little scary!

What blew me away was the incredible cultural imperialism espoused by all the nice liberal Williamsburg hipsters (and wannabes). Not only did they believe outrageous myths about observant Jewish women, but to a man (and woman), they were arrogant about knowing exactly how I should be living my life. Quelle surprise! They thought I should have the same values *they* had!

And that's the biggest problem with Third Wave feminsim, IMHO: the notion of working together to improve women's lives in tangible ways has deteriorated into a series of stereotypical catfights along the lines of, "On Wednesdays, we wear pink."

imorethanamother

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 2:17 pm

I'm a feminist, and I agree with the OP.

However, Orthodox Judaism is a bad place for a feminist.

When your main newspapers and magazines won't show pictures of women as a policy, you don't have equal rights and equal status. (Really, Mishpachah? Who do you think is reading your magazine? Men?)

When your buses tell you to sit somewhere else, you don't have equal rights and equal status.

When a man can get a divorce simply by telling a Rabbi or two that he wants one, despite his wife's wishes, but a woman never can and no Rabbi can figure out an acceptable alternative (see how many of them agree to the prenup), you don't have equal rights and equal status.

When women are attacked at the Kotel for trying to pray with a Torah, which is not forbidden by halachah, you don't have equal rights and equal status.

imorethanamother

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 2:20 pm

ora_43 wrote:

This is the best thing I have ever read on this website. So, so true.

iluvy

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 2:40 pm

Fox, I loved your post. But the list of third-wave feminist topics of interest is not exhaustive, and we still have plenty to worry about!

Inequality nowadays is less egregious than it was in the past, but I wouldn't say that those problems are solved. Companies rarely refuse to hire women these days (although several Intel executives were overheard saying that they wouldn't hire women because of maternity leave). But women are less likely to be given interesting and high-profile projects, less likely to be given credit for group projects (the "whiz kids" are almost always guys), and more likely to be criticized based on their personality (http://fortune.com/2014/08/26/performance-review-gender-bias/) or based on nothing at all (http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/12/09/gender_bias_in_student_evaluations_professors_of_online_courses_who_present.html). Women with kids are automatically considered less serious and sidelined onto a mommy track, while having kids boosts a man's career. Behaviors and traits associated with masculinity are the ones associated with success, but women are penalized for using those behaviors and traits.

In the frum world, I'm concerned with:
* The kollel ideology that privileges Torah learning over any other part of religious life, thereby enforcing that women are always of less value.
* The flip side of this, which holds that breaches in tznius chumras are more egregious than any other kind of sin.
* The fact that the speakers, the op-ed writers, the people whose opinions get heard are always (okay, list the exceptions that prove the rule) men.
* No pictures of women
* No women on my daughter's Bais Yaakov's board

....................We're not done with feminism yet!

etky

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 2:44 pm

ora_43 wrote:

So true. A few days ago I came across this piece in the Forward: http://blogs.forward.com/siste.....nism/
It annoyed me b/c my niece was at Ein Hanatziv a couple of years ago, to prepare for the army. Now she's a lieutenant in the Education Corps. - she commands over 60 soldiers. She's part of an ever-growing trend of DL girls who serve as soldiers and commanders in the IDF. These girls might not be so interested, at this particular pre-army juncture in their lives, in honing their 'feminist identity' by doning tzizit and tefilin as the author of the article does (though most come to Ein Hanatziv with a good background in Talmud - it's a subject taught in many DL high schools) . This doesn't meant that they lag behind their American sisters in terms of feminism. Quite the opposite I'd say. They might not talk the talk but they certainly walk the walk.

Fox

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 3:12 pm

iluvy wrote:

Inequality nowadays is less egregious than it was in the past, but I wouldn't say that those problems are solved. Companies rarely refuse to hire women these days (although several Intel executives were overheard saying that they wouldn't hire women because of maternity leave). But women are less likely to be given interesting and high-profile projects, less likely to be given credit for group projects (the "whiz kids" are almost always guys), and more likely to be criticized based on their personality or based on nothing at all. Women with kids are automatically considered less serious and sidelined onto a mommy track, while having kids boosts a man's career. Behaviors and traits associated with masculinity are the ones associated with success, but women are penalized for using those behaviors and traits.

I agree, and one thing that I think contemporary feminism is at least attempting to do is adequately study women's participation in the workforce, etc.

Unfortunately, I think they often reach conclusions that support tired, worn-out assumptions.

A few days ago listening to NPR when they reported on an allegedly ground-breaking study that attempted to correlate the lack of women in academic fields where specific "genius" is considered especially important, such as philosophy.

They found a high correlation and came to the conclusion -- duh -- that women choose not to pursue careers in these disciplines because they are somehow marginalized.

What they apparently didn't investigate (or NPR didn't report), however, is a research finding that has been uncovered in related studies: women tend to have better social skills and value collegial relationships more highly than men. Therefore, they don't enjoy working with a lot of socially-stunted (albeit genius!) men. In other words, women self-select themselves out of some disciplines, settings, and companies because the men are too socially inept!

A similar finding has been discovered with Harvard MBAs: a staggering percentage of women MBAs leave the corporate world within a decade or so after graduating. Are they treated differently? Do they hit a glass ceiling? Were they unable to find mentors? Maybe. But the women themselves say, "I wanted to start my own company and do things my way" or "I didn't like the fact that my job made family life so difficult."

Personally, I find that very exciting. It says that women are not willing to simply mimic men or make themselves and their families korbanos for feminist ideology. It also begs the question about whether the CEO track is healthy for men!

I believe that female entrepreneurship is the most important feminist activity going on right now -- both in the secular world and in the Jewish world. Owning and/or controlling the means of production -- whether that means Birchbox or somebody selling tichels out of her basement -- gives women far more power over their own destinies.

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